rec.autos.simulators

Hmmmm....I wonder what that is?

Remco

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:50:29 +1000, Bruce Kennewell

Correct. David was the listener (and "inferrer"), hence infer.

Cheers!
John

Wrong.  CART and GPL cars are night and day different.  If CPR drives
more like a GPL car, its because they took off loads of rear
downforce, making the car incredibly loose, even at high speeds.
CPR's driving model can be poor or good compared to Champ cars.  Even
if CPR's model is great assuming you are driving a Legends car, then
its not great, because that's not what the game seeks to model.  Its
true that CPR cars in the advanced physics mode are often ***ly
difficult to drive well, but again, I think that's due to messed up
grip/downforce models and poor control, and NOT a great physics model.
If that difficultly makes driving a more realistic sim easier, then
fine.  Some people would feel the effort in CPR is not worth the
reward though.

Again, challenging does not necessarily carry in realism with it.

That's a reach.  First of all, car geometry and handling can be
simulated mathematically, as can the effects of downforce on braking,
grip, accleration, etc.  We could go through item by item each of the
problems with CPR's physics model, but ultimately what I want you to
consider is this:  When the game first came out, Microsoft posted
quotes from Mauricio Gugelmin saying the grip model was perfect.  Then
they patched it, removing a ton of downforce.  So, is it STILL
perfect?  And if the patched version is perfect, what was the FIRST
version?

I don't know about that, Dave.  When I went to Skip Barber and got my
first run in a real Formula car, I felt like the sims had helped me
tremendously, in getting a good sense of the driving line, balancing
the throttle in the middle of the corner, and making the right
corrections to recover from oversteer (which I experienced in Turn 4
at Laguna Seca...eek!).  I am pretty sure that without the tons of
hours I spent on sims, I would have spun the car more than once.

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Nice try, Mark.  I spent a ton of hours setting up the car.  In the
first version, the setups were what I'd call "centered".  I.e. you
could take a neutral setup and go either way with it.  With the
physics model changes in the patch, the garage settings are no longer
centered.  You have to have a heckuva lot more rear wing to even
approach the level of rear download you had in the first version.  The
other setup changes 'moved' similarly off center.  I happen to know
what happened during the time the game was patched, and I can tell you
that the physics model changes were quite drastic and sudden, with
very little 'bake time' before the patch was released.  There was no
time for any of the changes to be verified against real cars, nor for
the garage settings to be re-calibrated to the new physics model.  If
you think you can defeat my arguments with that lame comment above,
you picked the wrong guy.  NO ONE wanted CPR to rule more than I did.

Once again, another weak response written by someone who obviously
knows NOTHING about me.

Once again, a very weak counter.  Let me give you a hint for future
debates.  Try something other than personal shots, unless you are
utterly incapable of debating intelligently.

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Exactly, these sims are entertainment. Unlike many otheres here at r.a.s., I
keep my opinions either technical, or to hopefully encourage others to join
in the fun. I don't try to prove my manhood by putting others down, or
stating that a piece of entertainment software that others put a lot of time
into, work on setups for, create tracks for, and enjoy immensely, "sucks" or
is "a piece of shit". You know who makes comments like that, don't you? The
real MEN of R.A.S.

Dave
DmndDave

If he was using a low wing setting with the first version  a higher wing
setting with the patched version would give similiar grip. Who knows what
setups he was using.

Dave
DmndDave

At least one person understands. The extreme and insulting comments that are
so prevalent here at r.a.s. are useless.

That's the problem. People here at r.a.s. think they know what these cars
should be like, but they don't. Car physics really aren't that difficult to
understand. It's not brain surgery. Driving a car isn't very difficult
either. Everybody, including the incredibly stupid, very young, very old,
the scared, and the clumsy, seems to be able to drive a car. Again, not
brain surgery. It's easy to have an idea of how those cars SHOULD handle,
but they are much different than anything anyone here at r.a.s. has ever
come close to experiencing. It's like a high school QB thinking he knows
what it's like to play pro QB. World's apart.

Dave
DmndDave

Now, come on, don't spell it out!! You'll hurt his feelings... ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm>

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

My original posting was about your "sucks" comment. It was not soapboxing.
It was a comment on your choice of adjectives. CPR has it's pros and cons.
Like any sim. I have stated both many, many, times.

You, on the other hand, have been praising Papyrus and GPL as if it's your
religion. According to you, NOTHING is wrong with GPL apparently. Based on a
demo.

attending to.

When did I write this combination of lines? I'm curious because it wasn't in
this thread.

Dave
DmndDave

Yes, and maybe the current best driver in the world (Zanardi) commented on
CPR. Along with a few other awesome drivers and they all had very positive
things to say. Maybe they just lied, or should of talked to Bruce first.

Dave
DmndDave

bins aye?

I wish they'd pay me NOT to read your tired old posturing. I'd like to have
those minutes of my life back. I would of been better off using them to pick
my nose. Same results from both.

Dave
DmndDave

It may be what's left on his plate when he's full.

Dave
DmndDave

My beta testing has absolutely nothing to do with any comments I make. I
happen to like F1RS a lot, though it has flaws, and GPL, which will have
flaws, and MTM2 with it's faults, and I used to race POD, and many others. I
didn't test for the developers of those sims/games.

Dave
DmndDave

Perhaps they were compensated for their endor***t?

Cheers!

Marc

--
Marc J. Nelson
The Sim Project - http://www.racesimcentral.net/

* No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

I don't care about CPR anymore, but this comment is way out there.
Just because it was a new release doesn't give it a right to be
screwed up more than another game.
It doesn't matter weather a game/engine is in it's first or tenth
revision. You rate them on what they are, not what came before them.

--

 http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1
 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)