rec.autos.simulators

I doubt you'd see anything other than the straight MHz gain
when using a Pentium Pro chip over a Pentium for a DOS 4GW game.

Only when Windows NT becomes the standard operating system for
PCs will people be able to take advantage of multi threaded games
which will run on multiple processors. Simulations would probably
suit a threaded programming environment because you could have
seperate threads for, say, the different aspects of the physics
model, graphics engine and AI.

Personally, I think the immediate future lies in 3D graphics
accelerator boards because:
- they will provided much better performance increase per $
than additional (or faster) processors.
- Games programmers are only now seriously considering Windows 95
as their operating system of choice.

Fraser

: >   Has anybody actually tried a Pentium Pro with max res and detail EF2K,
: >Indycar II, Descent, or any other demanding sim?  If so, did you see any
: >advantages?  

: I doubt you'd see anything other than the straight MHz gain
: when using a Pentium Pro chip over a Pentium for a DOS 4GW game.

: Only when Windows NT becomes the standard operating system for
: PCs will people be able to take advantage of multi threaded games
: which will run on multiple processors. Simulations would probably
: suit a threaded programming environment because you could have
: seperate threads for, say, the different aspects of the physics
: model, graphics engine and AI.

: Personally, I think the immediate future lies in 3D graphics
: accelerator boards because:
: - they will provided much better performance increase per $
: than additional (or faster) processors.
: - Games programmers are only now seriously considering Windows 95
: as their operating system of choice.

: Fraser

I don't agree with you there! The Pentium pro is optimised for running 32 bit
code and a dos extender, such as DOS4GW (?) allows the processor to run 32 bit
code under dos, therefore as far as I know, the user would see a dramatic
increase in speed when running these games on a Pentium Pro.

Cheers, Jonathan

PS. I agree with the 3d graphics board bit though!!!!
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The problem with the PPro is that it cannot handle mixed instructions,
where some of the code is using 32-bit operands while other code is
using 8 or 16-bit operands. You can continue to use 64K segments till
the cows come home, and the PPro will run just as fast within those
segments as any other sized segment; you just have to make sure that
you don't mix your operands up, because that causes dependencies that
the PPro doesn't want to superscale on. Of course, the fact that you
are using 64K segments means that you are by default using 16-bit
memory pointer references, therefore you must use 16-bit registers for
these pointers. So you might end up with mixed cases if a 16-bit
memory pointer reference follows a 32-bit operand reference, or
vice-versa.

Well, ever since the 486, all x86's have had internal caches. That's
nothing new or different in a PPro. The only difference is that the
caches have been growing and growing with every new family member.

Don't get your hopes up. The ideal game platform of the future is
Windows 95 not Windows NT. Microsoft's DirectX API extensions
(previously known as WinG in Windows 3.1) are a much more viable
direction for game research than SMP.

DirectX is only available for Windows 95 (and possibly a retrofit to
Windows 3.1), but it isn't available for Windows NT, and likely it
never will be available for it. DirectX goes against every philosophy
in the NT operating system, because it starts touching the hardware
much more directly than is allowable in NT. NT has the HAL layer which
is king, and nothing can get around it unless Microsoft specifically
decrees that the philosophy of NT has changed, and direct
(non-portable) accesses to the hardware will now be allowed.

Forget SMP multiprocessing (a la NT), you'll get much better results
with DirectX. That's because the processors employed by DirectX will
be much more specialized than two or more general CPU's, which SMP is
all about.

                                        Yousuf Khan

I think you'd get best results from a multi-processor machine with DirectX
technology and maybe multithreaded too. Over time it will happen.... (20 years
later... GP2 still not out....)

Jamie

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Correct.

Are they? Most games I've seen so far reboot win95 back to dos mode.
Feature of WCIV: it's runs in win95 after rebooting to dos.
(really it says on the box) well I'm impressed.
know is that the performance gain of win95 on a Ppro is miserable.
There is just too much critical code of win95 still 16bit. (Ppro is a nice way to test
if a OS is really 32 bit :-)

Now if you use OS/2 (which is fully 32 bit since Warp) a Ppro will MORE than DOUBLE your
performance. (when #Mhz of Ppro and pentium are the same)
Colorworks (could compare that with a more powerful Photostyler for OS/2) works 120% faster
on a Ppro.

Greetings,

Marc de Vries

Gene Miller

Of course when talking about games for the pentium pro we're are talking about 32bit games.
Then the OS on which it runs is important. And it has been proven that the PPro gives
better performance with NT and OS2 than win95 because win95 is not fully 32 bit internally.

Well win95 can do multithreading too I was told many times. NT's fully 32 bit execution?
tell me the difference with OS2 please. Maybe I've misunderstood.

And please somebody tell me why it is so great that Win95 autoruns CD's?????
(I wouldn't even want that in my audio cd player!)

Greetings,

Marc de Vries

The difference in the Pentium Pro processor is that unlike the previous
Intel x86 architecture processors, the Pentium Pro processor incorporates
an L2 (second level cache) into the primary processor package.  This means
that you have the L1 cache which is internal to the processor itself--like
with the i486-class processors, and a much larger L2 cache also included
in the same PGA package.  That's why there's two cavities in the Pentium
Pro processor PGA package--one cavity holds the processor and its L1
cache, and the other cavity holds the large L2 cache.

After reading the lastest CGW article on the "3D Blaster", I'm not
so sure the performance improvement with the 3D graphics card will
be as great as the marketing ad portrays it to be.  

Regards,
        Gary Eastham

Correct.  At least Papyrus's stuff is 32-bit.

Precisely what I expect to find.  (Quite an educated estimate, but an
estimate nonetheless.)

Actually most MP Pentiums have a cache per processor too.  (In fact, all
of the ones I've ever looked at, which is quite a few now, have separate
caches.)

Yes, because there are always synchronizatino primitives that do consume
cpu time.  On an MP, you don't usually care, since you get a lot of help
from the other cpu(s), but on a uni you do notice.

I wish we had them ported to Solaris/SPARC and threaded, since we could
then run them on our quad-processor RISC boxes.  Or heck, in this case,
I'd even run on an SGI box too!

--

Brian Wong                              Systems Engineering Group (Servers)

That's because the 3D Blaster is ***- I suspect that Creative
Labs decided to try and grab market share by releasing one of
the first 3D cards targetted specifically at the home market
(the PCI version isn't out yet). The Diamond Edge isn't too
hot either. However, I've seen a demo of Rave Racer running
on the new PowerVR 3D chipset (which is designed to complement
your existing graphics card, I believe), and it was AMAZING
(30 fps at 640*480 on a P-133). In addition, it's going to
be much cheaper than either the 3D Blaster or the Edge and
offer an unbelievable performance increase per $. This time
next year there will be many more 3D cards on the market
and I suspect many people who like fast SVGA games will buy
them.

Fraser

: Correct but this is really the same as with
: Win95 since it reboots back to dos also
: (MSDOS mode they call it...heh heh, some people are even fooled by it.
: amazing isn't it?)

It is because Microsoft is bent on taking over the world.  I am totally
convinced now that they misslead the public and hardware vendors about the
performance of their products.  I tried to purchase a computer from a good
company, DELL, the other day.  I told them I did not want Windows95, but
rather OS/2.  They told me they couldn't do it.  What?!!  I even told them
to just leave out the hard drive if that could help. Nope, they wouldn't
budge.  They said I must by a computer with Microsoft Windows95 (and of
course all the thousands of dollars worth of bullshit 'extras' like
spiderman's cartoon writer, etc...).  In effect, I must by a computer that
is advertised as a top of the line Pentium 133 (and pay big$$) when the os
only lets it run as fast as a Pentium 75 in dos!!! Arrgg!!  My question is
how much is Microsoft paying the vendors to include _only_ their OS??  It
really sucks.  Certainly there are laws against this.  Sorry this is off
topic/thread, but your comment unleashed my pent up anger and distrust to
these jackasses.

I'll try not to let this happen again.

Matt

There's an item on the PowerVR 3D in the march 96 edition of Edge (UK)
magazine. Certainly looks like it could be a winner and it's backed by
NEC and Videologic. Namco have announced an alliance with NEC and have
begun converting several of their arcade titles, including Rave Racer,
Tekken and Air Combat 22 (ready for release in May). Videologic claim
these titles actually surpass their arcade predecessors.

Where did you manage to see the demo of Rave Racer running on the
PowerVR ? Did you see any of the other software ? What was it like ?

Tia

Jeremy

a) I can fully understand why DELL and many other companies supply
all of their PC with one standard OS (such as Win 95) - they certainly
will have some sort of deal with Microsoft which ensures a very low
cost per copy of the OS. If you want OS/2, go out and buy it yourself!!

b) I have a DELL P-133. I assume it's a clock doubled 66 Mhz processor
and given that it has 512 Kb pipeline burst cache it runs at a damned
good speed under DOS. Why do you believe a P-133 will only run as
fast as a P-75 under DOS???????

Fraser

FWIW, my P100 ran DOS apps faster than a friend's P75... and when I
upgraded to a 133 it got faster still. It does seem slower running DOS
apps from a DOS PROMPT in W95, but in DOS mode it rips.

Trips