rec.autos.simulators

Even if a developer ever does an accurate simulation of a modern F1 car,
you are simply *not* going to get any feel for being on the limit.

This is because the suspension is *so* stiff, the car does not roll or
pitch perceptibly. The primary way a modern F1 driver can sense the
limit and correct slides is through the g-forces he feels through the
seat, not through what he sees. If you've ever driven a go-kart you'll
have some small perception of what this feels like.

A computer F1 simulation has to represent visually and aurally what it
is like to drive on the limit. I'm not counting FF because of the lag
involved. This is why GPL is so well suited. Not only is the physics
engine spot-on, the '67 cars had enough suspension travel and forgiving
enough tyres to enable you to drive them "through the screen".

So, for those waiting for a modern F1 sim that is as good and as
satisfying as GPL, you're going to have a very long wait:-(

Now if someone did a 70's F1 sim, that would be cool. Even though they
had wings, the cars moved around enough to make it "sim friendly".

- Michael

James

That's the main point of the original poster; the modern open wheelers
rely so much on the driver to be constantly in touch with the machine
that the experience doesn't translate as well to the computer. Both GP3
and F1 2000/CS are already rather close to the GPL physics engine, but
the parameters after the tweaking towards realistic values make them
behave so quickly that people refer to spins being 'canned', when in
fact they have been done with a force based physics model even in GP2.

-Gregor

I agree - I think Papyrus have done a good job with N4. I hope someone
eventually finds out how to convert GPL tracks as it would be quite fun
to try a NASCAR race on the Ring with a 42 car field:-)

- Michael

I think it makes for a near perfect game. I'm not a super *** fan
of NASCAR (I'll watch if its on when I'm not busy, and  the only races
I'll go out of my way to see are the two road courses), but I really
like N4.
I never felt comfortable with N3, and it was basically for the reasons
Michael stated in his top post... The sense of body roll and inertia
was not conveyed. N4 has that pegged.

NASCAR cars might not be sophisticated in the sense of not having 32
valve turbo V8's with telemetry, but they're is a lot of science to
making a car that heavy fast. The best description I can think of to
describe them is "brutal". They big and heavy, but they're also very
fast. Pit lane speed limits don't let you see one of these cars really
accelerate from a standing start, but if you've ever seen one do it in
person you'd be amazed.

I noticed a lot of the guys from Australia and other places like to
pick on NASCAR, but I think if you're a race fan, you're a race fan.
Rally and Touring Car races aren't easy to find on US TV, but I love
to see them.

Tim

On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:07:56 GMT, "James Pickard"

This is just another one of those "GPL is realistic because it's difficult"
posts.
A correctly modelled F1 sims is as enjoyable as you want it to be. If you
just don't like modernF1 then don't annoy those who do.

I stress once more: Difficulty does not equal realism!

No. When the rear of the car hits an obstacle during a canned spin and then
resumes the same parameters of the spin after the obstacle is no longer in
contact with the car, then you can be sure it is a canned spin. It implies
that the physics model says "oops car out of control, now apply this force
for a duration of x or until orientation of vehicle is x.". I really enjoyed
GP2, it felt real nice but something changed with GP3 and I've hated it all
the way.

Greg.

With the go-kart I know what you mean. You have to feel the limit of braking
and acceleration or the thing will just loop. (rear brakes and no
differential). I don't know how an F1 car handles though for some reason ;)

Greg.

Marc.

No it isn't. GPL is the most realistic sim yet, but it's still
controllable because of the nature of the cars modelled. My point was
that an F1 sim with a physics model as accurate as GPL wouldn't be as
controllable.

There hasn't been one yet so we can't say. The one's that come closest
are not, I think, particularly enjoyable. This isn't really surprising,
as F1 drivers with enough experience of older cars often complain that
the cars aren't as fun to drive as they used to be.

It's a bit off-topic, but for what it's worth, I think modern F1 has
lost sight of the primary reason for its existence - to be a spectacle.
Compared to the 60's, 70's and even the 80's it's definitely the loser.
Having said that I have watched F1 for 20 years, and will still continue
to watch it.

- Michael

-Gregor

--
J. Sakari Salonen

Can't wait - as long as we don't have to have a full pace lap:-)

- Michael