rec.autos.simulators

1) It is incredibly complicated with all the electronics controlling
parts of the car, diffs, brakes, throttle..
2) "Everything" is based on aerodynamics.
3) Try to get any info, whatsoever, about
chassis/electronics/engine/aerodynamics from a state of the art car! It
would be easier to obtain info on a stealth fighter...

So: let's have more:
1) Sportscar/touringcar sims
2) A better NASCAR sim (N3?)
3) a new CART/IRL sim! (in theory, Papy/EA/Microprose/etc could go and
buy the latest car from Lola, R&S or Reynard, and measure their hearts
out...

my 2 cents,

Matt
--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

And you say that a CART simulator would be more easy to do ? They are almost
as complicated from a electronic point of view.  Both F1 and CART is very
advanced in electronic controlling, aerodynamic, etc...  F1 specifications
can be easily given from teams btw.  As for technical data from F1 teams,
Renault worked with Ubisoft, I know that Sauber worked with Geoff Crammond
(or was it Jordan ?) for Gp2.  It's not anything top secret.

A Formula 1 is still a racecar. It's not impossible to model correctly.
Electronic controlling is not a big factor in the physics of a racecar.
Aerodynamics is not that hard with mathematical calculations.  IMHO

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-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
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Try and ask Ron Dennis about the latest McLaren or something...
Most likely... he'll just polish his nails and laugh at ya! :)

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All the best,
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  Both F1 and CART is very

?bsolutely no way! I've been to the Jordan factory, and they've got
security gueards *outside*! We were even *checked* before we were let
in, and they made sure we were not studying things up too closely...

  As for technical data from F1 teams,

Yeah, right.

Well, that's your view...F1 is not anymore "just a racecar". They are
far from it....try picking up an issue of Racecar Engineering once:-)

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

Matt
--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

Seriously, it'd be less a problem now than modelling cars from the
full-active days, though you already have the likes of ABS and
traction control in some sims (however well or poorly they're
executed).  And if you think about it, the hard part is for the real
guys, converting the electronic signals into the desired analog
behavior of the components.  With sims, there's no analog part to foul
things up by behaving other than you expected it to!

Again, I suspect it's a lot easier to model how a car will behave,
given certain overall aerodynamic properties, than to actually build
one that will have those properties.  But still, it'll be interesting
to see if and how N3, for example, models the effect of drafting on
downforce and grip.

Well, you could lurk behind the armco with a stinger missle and shoot
one down when it whizzed by.  Then you only need to haul off the bits
and reverse-engineer! :-)

But no, as far as "accurately" modelling the minute differences
between each make of car, that'll never happen in a mass-market sim,
ever.  Nor will it for a CART, Touring Car,  or Nascar sim, as all the
teams work incessantly to find advantages and are not about to go
public with them.

All on the way, rest assured.  Just buy the good ones and slam the bad
ones to all who'll listen.  Companies are fond of profit, and tend to
do whatever brings more of 'em!

Steve B.

Remove "edy" from address for email

My point is; F1 is a show, the pinnacle of Hi-tec. Whereas I can go (and
have done so) and photograph a Ferrari 333, R&S MkIII, Lola 99 CART,
Reynard 99 CART, 98 Toyota GT-One, 98 BTCC Volvo etc etc up close, talk
to the engineers, discuss why they've done what and so on, I could only
dream about doing this with F1 cars unless I had $ 1 mill on my bank
account, and half of that was donated to Mr.Ecclestone. No matter how
big EA, Psygnosis or Sierra think they are, they would *never* have
access to the same detail levels in F1.
The difference is obvious: you can buy a 99 Reynard. You cannot buy a
Formula one McLaren or Williams. They are not for sale! No matter how
old!
What I am saying is; it is possible to "simulate" a CART chassis because
you can actually go find a car, buy it, drive it, take it to pieces,
whatever. The only F1s you'll ever get close to are 4-5 year old
Jordans, Footworks (been working on one), Tyrrells etc. Of course, you
can make this the basic of the physics, and just say that a williams has
30% better physics...

Try getting any data on the *front* diff on the 99 Bennetton.....

:-) Matt

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

Of course you cant buy the 99 F1 cars because there is secret information
the teams are keeping from each other obviously. You can though buy a 98
Ferrari, I have seen it for sale and why not if youve got a few million
laying about.

Whats actually wrong with manufacturors competeing in a technological race
instead of everybody buying the same chassis? Besides the chances of Papy
actually buying a Reynard to take a part is about the same as Bernie E
giving away tv rights for free!

:-)

ilmore

 The only F1s you'll ever get close to are 4-5 year old

Matt,

Does this esoteric stuff really matter? I mean are we as non feeling
computer pilotes really going to feel the difference of the front diff
on the 99 Bennetton?  My gut feeling is no.  I think really having an
accurate sim of an up to date F1 car will be damn boring.  We can't
follow close or we lose aero grip, so overtaking is out.  With the
grooved tires the limit appears to be very difficult to find without
going over so spins will be frequent.  The thrill of feeling the
sensation is not available so what is left?  Well, hot lapping and the
starts I guess.  I immensly enjoy watching the drama of an F1 weekend
but for a sim I would like to see some liberties taken with the ride
the rails cars (I know that they are twitchy but still the aero
downforce is high) and have a bit of the aero effects taken out. It is
just more enjoyable to drive.

Having  Papy  do a mid/late 70's GP season is more appealing than the
modern aero cars. Don't get me wrong, I love high tech stuff, read
Race Car Engineering and appreciate the technical race as much as the
on the track race in F1 but to have a totally accurate sim of modern
day cars without the physical sensations just doesn't do much for me.
Don't know if that makes sense...

Jeff Haas

PS:  When do you get to drive the Footwork you're working on ... ?

We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
too small.

--Tel

I don't think the simulation of the car is the problem.  I would see
it a a problem with the interface.  The experiance of driving a car
goes far beyond holding a steering wheel and looking at a flat
view of the world.  There is no "feel" sitting at a desk.  To
provide better "cues" sound and graphics have to be adjusted to
to get the driver better informed of what the car is doing.  This must
lead to inaccuracies of the presentation of the real effects -
which I would guess is seen as not real physics.  But then it isn't
a real situation is it.

I would prefer a game that felt right (based on some arbitrarily
derived physics) but tha was not exactly real-world simulated.  I
would not want the absurd canned slides of Ridge Racer, I would
like to be able to induce oversteer and control steering using
the power etc, but it doesn't have to be exactly correct if I can't
tell it is going to happen and can't judge the extent of the
effect because the rest of the model isn't there (the feel).  I
would rather sacrifice some accuracy for a better experience based on
wheel and screen.

Does this make sense to anyone ?

John

 I think really having an

Yes, couldn't agree more. A pity F1 has become what it is...

Also my dream. The thing is; there are fewer physics "sensations" to
simulate in modern car.."no" suspension travel/pitch/roll engine has
about as much torque as a lawnmower..or am I garbling the words up...:-)

LOL, as a mechanic, I worked on one year, my team were meant to buy it,
but we ended up modifying a 91 Reynard F3000 for a 4 cyl turbo engine
instead...hell, it's a loong, boring story:-)

Matt

(happy there are simulators, cause I'm to damn tall for single seaters
anyway!)

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/