rec.autos.simulators

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

> Well, you could lurk behind the armco with a stinger missle and shoot
> one down when it whizzed by. Then you only need to haul off the bits
> and reverse-engineer! :-)

Lol, a good idea:)

I agree, but I think it's more about the prospect of the "generic"
modern F1. Isn't it easier to make a better sim out of the so-called
lesser formulae?
I mean, those people have access to all the computer power they want,
and still end up making dogs out of cars...:)

I truly hope so. I guess I'm just put out by the fact that IMO the best,
most driveable sim today uses cars from the 60s. Kinda reminds me of my
road cars, I used to have a GTI that wasn't any fun until you were doing
100MPH, whereas my
Mini is fun at 40:-)

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

> I don't think the simulation of the car is the problem. I would see
> it a a problem with the interface. The experiance of driving a car
> goes far beyond holding a steering wheel and looking at a flat
> view of the world. There is no "feel" sitting at a desk. To
> provide better "cues" sound and graphics have to be adjusted to
> to get the driver better informed of what the car is doing. This must
> lead to inaccuracies of the presentation of the real effects -
> which I would guess is seen as not real physics. But then it isn't
> a real situation is it.

Nicely put:-) Like the moving***pit of GPL?

Absolutely! That's why a modern F1 "sim" would always be a
friendly-interfaced game with an "officcial license" stamp om the
cover...using real world F1 physics, and making them controllable via my
desk will be hard. GP2 did give some sort of good impression, in fact I
will be surprised if anyone can better it (at high speed)....

Matt:-)

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **John Walla** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

On Sun, 9 May 1999 16:02:50 -0500, "Chris Schletter"

>Hate to blow your gasket, but the high end sports cars and especially the
>CART cars are just as much dependent on your first 4 items as are the F1
>cars.

Any car is dependent on those things - it is how advanced, how much
money and how secretive they are. In those areas F1 is _way_ ahead of
anyone else. Peruse the latest concerns over engine materials to get
an idea.

Cheers!
John

by **gordo..** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

The real reason is that to be realistic they would make the sim so that
it is impossible to pass. Whoever gets to the first turn first leads
the race, and unless you run a long enough race so you stand a chance
of passing during a pitstop, nothing more happens.

-- Doug Gordon

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **ymenar** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

Yes I understood his point, just wanted to put a little heat in the
discussion :)

Of course F1 is alot more secret and information is difficult to get, but
it's not that impossible. If we are in 1999, the companies can easily make a
1998 F1 simulator of the "car physics", and since the development of the
title normally takes more than a year, well when the title gets on the
market in 2000 you can take data from the 1999 cars. I know it's not that
easy, but it's IMHO possible. If the company can get a FIA license, Im sure
they will have a section in the contract where they will be able to get data
specifications directly from the FIA, hopefully.

;-D

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

> The real reason is that to be realistic they would make the sim so that
> it is impossible to pass. Whoever gets to the first turn first leads
> the race, and unless you run a long enough race so you stand a chance
> of passing during a pitstop, nothing more happens.

LOL! Absolutely true! And for those who hate seeing Lotus 49s in GPL,
imagine a modern F1 sim. No prob programming the Ai, tho.

IF Player = Michael Schumacher then
pass
else
StayInLine

:-D

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **^Frett** » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

Don't you think this makes sense fellow r.a.s readers?

> On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:30:29 +0200, Matthew Birger Knutsen

> We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
> here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
> learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
> too small.

> --Tel

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

> Don't you think this makes sense fellow r.a.s readers?

> > On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:30:29 +0200, Matthew Birger Knutsen

> > We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
> > here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
> > learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
> > too small.

> > --Tel

err, I didn't write that.....

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **^Frett** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

Sorry Matt; This wasnt directed to you!!

> > Don't you think this makes sense fellow r.a.s readers?

> > > On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:30:29 +0200, Matthew Birger Knutsen

> > > We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
> > > here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
> > > learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
> > > too small.

> > > --Tel

> err, I didn't write that.....

> Matt

> --

> Matthew Knutsen

> "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
> http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

> Sorry Matt; This wasnt directed to you!!

np:)

But, doesn't Tamiya et.al "borrow" cars for their model kits? Why can't
gamecompanies do the same? Boo-hooo :))

Matt

> > > Don't you think this makes sense fellow r.a.s readers?

> > > > On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:30:29 +0200, Matthew Birger Knutsen

> > > > We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
> > > > here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
> > > > learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
> > > > too small.

> > > > --Tel

> > err, I didn't write that.....

> > Matt

> > --

> > Matthew Knutsen

> > "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
> > http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **Mark C Dod** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

Goes back to my idea about a Supercart sim. Pure racing. 99% driver and 1%
car to win a race. Damn, wish I could still fit in the 125cc racing cart in
the garage.....

> ...is simple. Try figuring out the physics of a modern F1 car, in any
> way realistically. How the heck will you be able to do that?

> 1) It is incredibly complicated with all the electronics controlling
> parts of the car, diffs, brakes, throttle..
> 2) "Everything" is based on aerodynamics.
> 3) Try to get any info, whatsoever, about
> chassis/electronics/engine/aerodynamics from a state of the art car! It
> would be easier to obtain info on a stealth fighter...

> So: let's have more:
> 1) Sportscar/touringcar sims
> 2) A better NASCAR sim (N3?)
> 3) a new CART/IRL sim! (in theory, Papy/EA/Microprose/etc could go and
> buy the latest car from Lola, R&S or Reynard, and measure their hearts
> out...

> my 2 cents,

> Matt
> --

> Matthew Knutsen

> "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
> http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **Mark C Dod** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

Some sim developers actually get the telemetry readings. This is already in
usable format and provides exactly the required datas on g forces,
accleration, tire temp etc. This allows for a realistic physics model and is
okay with the teams as long as its old telemetry and the sim writers don't
give away wing and tyre settings etc. EA Superbikes is a good example. Ducati
supplied telemetry readings to help with the physics.

No need to go and make physical measurements. Who cares how wide a McLaren is
compared to a Ferrari as long as the physics and setup options come somewhere
near the real thing?

> On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:30:29 +0200, Matthew Birger Knutsen

> >The difference is obvious: you can buy a 99 Reynard. You cannot buy a
> >Formula one McLaren or Williams. They are not for sale! No matter how
> >old!

> Not true. You may not get a McLaren because Ron Dennis is keeping them
> for himself but anything else goes. Up to last years F300 - which
> would be pretty much the pinnacle of it all.

> >What I am saying is; it is possible to "simulate" a CART chassis because
> >you can actually go find a car, buy it, drive it, take it to pieces,

> We should not forget that we're still talking about computer games
> here. No one will ever actually buy such a car to get a closer look or
> learn about it. Not EA nor Sony nor anyone, the revenues are just way
> too small.

> --Tel

by **Matthew Birger Knutse** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

> Some sim developers actually get the telemetry readings. This is already in
> usable format and provides exactly the required datas on g forces,
> accleration, tire temp etc. This allows for a realistic physics model and is
> okay with the teams as long as its old telemetry and the sim writers don't
> give away wing and tyre settings etc. EA Superbikes is a good example. Ducati
> supplied telemetry readings to help with the physics.

Yeah, great, and PI Research helped out on Cart Precision Racing...:-D
Haven't tried Superbike yet, but it looks good:)

To figure out correct physics from a chassis, you would most definitely
need to know measurements, after all, it is something that is simulated!
Roll centre movements, wheelbase, track width, weight distribution etc
etc.

Kinda hard to reverse engineer this?
A few years back, we took a homebuilt sports-prototype to a company, we
had designed it from the bottom as best as we could. They measured
everything on the car, except aerodynamic devices. They then gave us a
computer readout that explained what the car in current state would do,
and how to improve that (i.e move left upper rear suspension pickup
point down 2mm, raise steering rack 5mm etc etc, actually it was a small
book of details. Using such a computer program, one could easily measure
a car, feed the info into a physics model, and you would have the car in
your PC. This work took the company two days, and it was years ago.
Mind, the car was very competitive on it's first outing :-)
It's all a case of mathemetics, and given a good representation of the
track...very interesting indeed...
What I would give to know how Papy applied this to GPL!

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

by **John Walla** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

With an annual turnover of more than Fifty Thousand Million dollars
($50,000,000,000) I think Sony could probably afford an F1 car or two
if they so wished...

Cheers!
John

by **Mark C Dod** » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00

yes but the telemetry tell them the wing settings, tyre setting, camber setting
etc. They can see what adjusting gizmo b will do to measurement x. They know for
instance the maximum and minimum camber adjustment and the telemetry reading from
the variations in this adjustment. This is the information they need. It would be
nice to know the wheelbase or track width but really, since they aren't adjustable
in F1 cars, who really cares.

It is all just mathematics up to a point. If they could find a proper AI formula to
measure a Shuey vs a Coultard or a Doohan vs a Biaggi it would be fantastic!
Perhaps the first measurement they should take is the size of their balls! I don't
think Coultard's got any after his performance in the last race.

> > Some sim developers actually get the telemetry readings. This is already in
> > usable format and provides exactly the required datas on g forces,
> > accleration, tire temp etc. This allows for a realistic physics model and is
> > okay with the teams as long as its old telemetry and the sim writers don't
> > give away wing and tyre settings etc. EA Superbikes is a good example. Ducati
> > supplied telemetry readings to help with the physics.

> Yeah, great, and PI Research helped out on Cart Precision Racing...:-D
> Haven't tried Superbike yet, but it looks good:)

> > No need to go and make physical measurements. Who cares how wide a McLaren is
> > compared to a Ferrari as long as the physics and setup options come somewhere
> > near the real thing?

> To figure out correct physics from a chassis, you would most definitely
> need to know measurements, after all, it is something that is simulated!
> Roll centre movements, wheelbase, track width, weight distribution etc
> etc.

> Kinda hard to reverse engineer this?
> A few years back, we took a homebuilt sports-prototype to a company, we
> had designed it from the bottom as best as we could. They measured
> everything on the car, except aerodynamic devices. They then gave us a
> computer readout that explained what the car in current state would do,
> and how to improve that (i.e move left upper rear suspension pickup
> point down 2mm, raise steering rack 5mm etc etc, actually it was a small
> book of details. Using such a computer program, one could easily measure
> a car, feed the info into a physics model, and you would have the car in
> your PC. This work took the company two days, and it was years ago.
> Mind, the car was very competitive on it's first outing :-)
> It's all a case of mathemetics, and given a good representation of the
> track...very interesting indeed...
> What I would give to know how Papy applied this to GPL!

> Matt

> --

> Matthew Knutsen

> "The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
> http://www.cheekracing.electra.no/GPL/

rec.autos.simulators

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..

The real reason there will be no good F1 sims..