rec.autos.simulators

by **Maxx** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:10:49

Yes, this old chestnut again but now we have some confirmation that
it is not just used by sim-racers but by at least one current F1
driver.

This is a quote from the following thread :
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

----------------
For the third time in as many races Fisichella passed him in the
pitstops by dint of better fuel consumption, and the reason for this
became clear after the race. Jenson had trailed the throttle by as
much as 15 per cent under braking for the chicanes as a way of
stabilising the car, a trick he learned in karting. The upshot was
that the technique used more fuel than planned and he had to pit
earlier than Fisi, giving him fewer laps on light tanks. "Trailing the
throttle is second nature to me," says Jenson. "I almost don't realise
I'm doing it. But it plays against me in Formula 1, so I'll have to
stop it."
----------------

As I've said before, when used in real-life it is for stability under
braking, not improved braking. It is however associated with
late-braking, a quote from same article " He is a late braker -
second only to Ralf"

If you can brake harder whilst remaining stable you can brake
that little bit later.

Maxx

by **Racecraf** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:32:35

I believe Damon Hill observed Michael Schumacher using this technique at
Monaco.

>Yes, this old chestnut again but now we have some confirmation that
>it is not just used by sim-racers but by at least one current F1
>driver.

>This is a quote from the following thread :
>http://www.itv-f1.com/features/featuresf1_story.php3?mediaid=7609

>----------------
>For the third time in as many races Fisichella passed him in the
>pitstops by dint of better fuel consumption, and the reason for this
>became clear after the race. Jenson had trailed the throttle by as
>much as 15 per cent under braking for the chicanes as a way of
>stabilising the car, a trick he learned in karting. The upshot was
>that the technique used more fuel than planned and he had to pit
>earlier than Fisi, giving him fewer laps on light tanks. "Trailing the
>throttle is second nature to me," says Jenson. "I almost don't realise
>I'm doing it. But it plays against me in Formula 1, so I'll have to
>stop it."
>----------------

>As I've said before, when used in real-life it is for stability under
>braking, not improved braking. It is however associated with
>late-braking, a quote from same article " He is a late braker -
>second only to Ralf"

>If you can brake harder whilst remaining stable you can brake
>that little bit later.

>Maxx

by **Dave Henri** » Fri, 12 Oct 2001 22:04:09

^^^^ I 'thought' you were gonna say Austrailia :) OOPS that was using
the throttle AFTER he broke...;>
dave henrie

by **SpeedFree** » Sat, 13 Oct 2001 02:29:23

Where's Alex Pez when we need him?? ;o)

by **Alan Orto** » Sun, 14 Oct 2001 04:10:27

Of course the amount of throttle he is "draging" isn't putting more stress
on the front tires, but instead adjusting the brake bias while braking and
eliminating engine braking. If he was using enough throttle to over power
the rear brakes and put more stress on the front tires then he would
increase his braking distances.
I still say ditch the semi-automatic stuff and throw in a real clutch with a
gate shifter. A 2 year could downshift a F1 car and that just isn't right.
Bring back basic driver skills into play. While they are at it outlaw
straight cut gears, Force the drivers to heel toe. Make racing harder and
let the driver with the most honed skills win.

by **Tom Pabs** » Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:51:14

Maxx...

Based on my knowledge of "trail braking" used in karting.....and the
description you've posted below, I believe what he is referring to is
standard "trail braking" (often called "left foot braking") ....and this has
been S.O.P in road racing for many, many years! I believe recent
developments in F1 "power-to-road" management have made trail braking
counter productive, primarily for the fuel consumption issues discussed
below. But, if you learned road race using it (and all good drivers did),
then it's a tough "habit" to break.

This is not the same thing that is referred to in GPL as simultaneous brake
and throttle application to improve braking performance. That is something
entirely different and is really a "bug" in GPL which has been exploited to
the extent that if you don't use it, you are going to be beat badly by those
who do. When I first learned of this (about a year ago) in GPL, I tried to
use it regularly (it does work) but found it too awkward, because the
technique required when left foot braking conflicts with my "brains"
hand-eye-foot coordination that was developed over 15 years of real road
racing, using trail braking. So, I could brake much later into a
turn....but I was less coordinated in throttle/brake application getting
through the turn in its entirety, the net result of which was making me
slower, not faster in segment times. Perhaps those who don't already have
imprinted brains with standard trail braking technique, can find a way to
use it....and not be slowed. I'm not saying that a person shouldn't try
it.....I guess that's the point I want to make.

However, this changed about four months ago!

I have found a very easy way to both trail brake, and use the
GPL-throttle-on braking technique in a compatible way. My lap times at all
GPL tracks (that I run regularly) have therefore, dropped dramatically in
the last four months (not that I was all that fast in GPL to start with).
For example, at Watkins Glen, prior to the last four months....I could run
consistent laps of 107's average for large numbers of simultaneous laps (30,
40, 50 laps or more without stopping) and have almost no chance of even
dropping a wheel (I can run faster....but risk of going off track, or making
a mistake that turns the lap into a 112....goes up dramatically if I try
averaging laps in the 105 area). In the last four months that has dropped
to low 106's and that's a major-league drop in lap times for me. I have
done nothing to change my trail braking technique. What I have done is gone
back to the right-foot braking, heal and toe technique I used in real racing
for many years. This was done in conjunction with the development of the
overhead pedal system you saw a video of on High Gear a couple months
back.....and the development work we've done to assist BRD in creating their
analogue (pot) clutch pedal system. Its a simple technique of rolling your
right foot "less off" the throttle during down shift braking.....and the GPL
race car braking distance just is dramatically less! I still trail brake
only with my left foot (which no longer does all the braking as it did when
I used only a two pedal system in GPL).....so there's no problem with
confusing my brain! Using a three-pedal system in GPL with an analogue
(pot) clutch pedal is clearly faster than any other alternative we've had
available for the last three years. It takes a while to teach yourself the
right foot heal and toe technique (or, as in my case, to re-learn
it).....but once you have that down....you are going to drop major seconds
off your GPL lap times!

I've been running GPL now with this analogue clutch pedal....for several
hundred hours. You get good at using the clutch to prevent wheel
spin.....create quick starts (faster than using the button we've all used
for years)......and reducing to some extent, the bad results of trailing
throttle oversteer.....and much more. You can definitely "spin" the clutch
in GPL....in case there was any doubt about that (not true in N4, by the
way).

Just watched Schu set an all-time track record at Suzuka (1:33.068) on
Speedvision and the car looked like it was glued to the track. The
performance looked "alien" and super-human. Sorry....I can't be impressed
by a car that let's you drive it like that. Its like watching space shuttle
craft race around the moon and back to earth. Fast yes! Entertaining? No
way. He just dropped it to a 32.8 ...yikes! They broke the camera to a
quick look at Montoya and Ralph Schu sitting in their cars, watching the
timing board....and when they saw Schu's 32.8....Montoya rolled is eyes back
in his head and grabbed his helmet with both hands! Ralph just stared into
the screen as if not believing what the timing board reported!
....lol.....

Tom

by **Maxx** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:25:35

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:51:14 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com>
wrote:

>Maxx...

>Based on my knowledge of "trail braking" used in karting.....and the
>description you've posted below, I believe what he is referring to is
>standard "trail braking" (often called "left foot braking") ....and this has
>been S.O.P in road racing for many, many years! I believe recent
>developments in F1 "power-to-road" management have made trail braking
>counter productive, primarily for the fuel consumption issues discussed
>below. But, if you learned road race using it (and all good drivers did),
>then it's a tough "habit" to break.

Tom,

I agree that driving habits are hard to break, not least because they
become so entrenched in your sub-concsious and generally, in a race,
at his level, thats what is controlling your "mechanics" of driving.

I have to come back on some other points you made though, it's
only terminology but it is important and I feel myself drawn to
respond to it everytime I see it.

Trail-Braking per se has nothing to do with left or right foot
braking. It has even less to do with the gas pedal.

Most club racers, certainly here in the UK, if they use trail-braking
at all will use the right foot to brake with zero gas. This is often
bad news for a fast turn as you really need to have some gas on
to keep the back-end under you (balanced throttle)

The very adept may be able to keep a little gas applied as they
turn in under trail-braking by using heel & toe, then rolling off
the brake and back onto the gas. I think this is what you are
now doing with the BRD setup.

The reason many drivers in many different classes and formula
would "intentionally" want to keep some gas on whilst braking
is for "stability under braking". In real-life I don't think this
would actually improve braking efficiency, all I know of physics
(not a great deal) would tend to support this. It may help where a
car has very poor brakes (i.e. Saloons) or brakes that heat up
very rapidly (to the extent where they lose effectiveness whulst
still braking).

A problem you have with most saloons and formula cars with
very little or no-wing (i.e. F Ford) is that if you do brake really
hard the back end gets very, very light and any inbalance in
the car of your driving will be accentuated, causing the car
to fishtail at best, spin at worst.

So, if you brake harder with stabilty you will generally be able to
brake "better".

I would think by what Jensen say's he was still using this in
Formula 3.

I think this is partly why it gets used in GPL but I also think
the effect may be accentuated.

OK, back to the left-foot. Obviously, left foot braking makes it
much easier to trail-brake and provide throttle input, you are
more easily able to vary the amount of brake and thriottle (once
you get the left-foor trained) which is really tricky with the right
foot.

As Jensen says, he uses it for stability as do most of the drivers
I have known. The reason I posted it here was that there have
been a number of posters who have stated (after a few days
at a race driving school) that it is definitely not used.

>This is not the same thing that is referred to in GPL as simultaneous brake
>and throttle application to improve braking performance. That is something
>entirely different and is really a "bug" in GPL which has been exploited to
>the extent that if you don't use it, you are going to be beat badly by those
>who do. When I first learned of this (about a year ago) in GPL, I tried to
>use it regularly (it does work) but found it too awkward, because the
>technique required when left foot braking conflicts with my "brains"
>hand-eye-foot coordination that was developed over 15 years of real road
>racing, using trail braking. So, I could brake much later into a
>turn....but I was less coordinated in throttle/brake application getting
>through the turn in its entirety, the net result of which was making me
>slower, not faster in segment times. Perhaps those who don't already have
>imprinted brains with standard trail braking technique, can find a way to
>use it....and not be slowed. I'm not saying that a person shouldn't try
>it.....I guess that's the point I want to make.

Yes, I find that no matter how hard I try and make my feet do
something, they seem to be connected to my arms :) When
I turn the wheel my left-foot (I left-foot brake) automatically
comes off the brake and it just seems totally alien for me to
actually "press" both pedals at the same time.

- Show quoted text -

>However, this changed about four months ago!

>I have found a very easy way to both trail brake, and use the
>GPL-throttle-on braking technique in a compatible way. My lap times at all
>GPL tracks (that I run regularly) have therefore, dropped dramatically in
>the last four months (not that I was all that fast in GPL to start with).
>For example, at Watkins Glen, prior to the last four months....I could run
>consistent laps of 107's average for large numbers of simultaneous laps (30,
>40, 50 laps or more without stopping) and have almost no chance of even
>dropping a wheel (I can run faster....but risk of going off track, or making
>a mistake that turns the lap into a 112....goes up dramatically if I try
>averaging laps in the 105 area). In the last four months that has dropped
>to low 106's and that's a major-league drop in lap times for me. I have
>done nothing to change my trail braking technique. What I have done is gone
>back to the right-foot braking, heal and toe technique I used in real racing
>for many years. This was done in conjunction with the development of the
>overhead pedal system you saw a video of on High Gear a couple months
>back.....and the development work we've done to assist BRD in creating their
>analogue (pot) clutch pedal system. Its a simple technique of rolling your
>right foot "less off" the throttle during down shift braking.....and the GPL
>race car braking distance just is dramatically less! I still trail brake
>only with my left foot (which no longer does all the braking as it did when
>I used only a two pedal system in GPL).....so there's no problem with
>confusing my brain! Using a three-pedal system in GPL with an analogue
>(pot) clutch pedal is clearly faster than any other alternative we've had
>available for the last three years. It takes a while to teach yourself the
>right foot heal and toe technique (or, as in my case, to re-learn
>it).....but once you have that down....you are going to drop major seconds
>off your GPL lap times!

I'm very much looking forward to their new system and regularly drop
Simon an email asking when it's going to be available (also the FF
wheel).

Ther are many VERY fast right foot brakers in GPL, certainly I've
heard of GPLRanks of about -40 (I know how you feel about
GPL Rank but for now it is the only benchmark we have and
as you are looking at lap times to demonstate your driving
improvment then it makes sense).

These guys I'm pretty sure are not using heel & toe as no pedals
I have seen would allow it (unles they really are Aliens and
using 4 feet or have Tentacles).

Theres little to chose between the two, no great advantage
to brake+gas, no great advantage to trail-braking with gas
as opposed to just trail-braking itself.

I do know however that many right foot brakers, having
switched to the dark side and given it a couple of months
have found themselves a little quicker. I think therefore the
"potential" there to go quicker.

I would have thought using your BRD setup and with lots &
lots of practice using heel & toe with a trailing throttle it also
would have that slight advantage over conventional right-
foot braking but probably slightly less potential than expert
left-foot braking WITH GPL AT THE MOMENT.

Aha, but roll on the day when we have a sim where you really
needs heel & toe and where there aren't these quirks that
make unrealistic driving habits beneficial, however slight. I'm
saying that but being only boot size 6 (UK) which is very
small my foot used to ache after a 30 minute race.

- Show quoted text -

>I've been running GPL now with this analogue clutch pedal....for several
>hundred hours. You get good at using the clutch to prevent wheel
>spin.....create quick starts (faster than using the button we've all used
>for years)......and reducing to some extent, the bad results of trailing
>throttle oversteer.....and much more. You can definitely "spin" the clutch
>in GPL....in case there was any doubt about that (not true in N4, by the
>way).

>Just watched Schu set an all-time track record at Suzuka (1:33.068) on
>Speedvision and the car looked like it was glued to the track. The
>performance looked "alien" and super-human. Sorry....I can't be impressed
>by a car that let's you drive it like that. Its like watching space shuttle
>craft race around the moon and back to earth. Fast yes! Entertaining? No
>way. He just dropped it to a 32.8 ...yikes! They broke the camera to a
>quick look at Montoya and Ralph Schu sitting in their cars, watching the
>timing board....and when they saw Schu's 32.8....Montoya rolled is eyes back
>in his head and grabbed his helmet with both hands! Ralph just stared into
>the screen as if not believing what the timing board reported!
>....lol.....

Argh!! surprised you didn't get a flame for this Tom, I know many have
to wait quite a while before they get to see the Qualifying or those
that tape it to watch later.

Theres no doubt driving those cars at these speeds requires immense
skill but I do feel, as you appear to, that this has been devalued
over the years and especially this last year or so.

The competitiveness of many of the newer young drivers goes someway
to show this. These guys (Raikonnen, Wilson, Webber, Yoong, Alonso
etc.) are talented but there have always been talented F3 drivers who
would simply not be able to drive an F1 car of a few years ago close
to the pace of the current drivers.

Maxx

by **Maxx** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:32:59

I'm not so sure on the adjusting brake-bias element, yes it may work
if you are not braking hard but on braking hard (at maximum) I don't
think you can shift weight [it's a physics thing so I'm told].

In my reply to Tom I've said what I think (well, know from real life)
is the real reason for having some gas on whilst braking and that
is for stability.

I agree 100% here Alan. Whats worse, many of the cars downshift
automatically under braking. That coupled with Traction control,
relieving the driver from having to use one of the main skills in
driving a race car, throttle control. No wonder these "kids" are
able to keep up with the veterans. And, as for launch control!!
ridiculous.

Maybe in 5 years races will be won by Programmers, the drivers
being 12 year olds straight out of Karting [no disrespect to 12yo
karters BTW].

Nuff said.

Maxx

by **Jan Verschuere** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:18:10

Agree Alan, but just to be a pedant I'd like to point out the cut of the
gears doesn't have an effect on the nescessity of "matching the revs" in
single seater racing gearbox, as they almost invariably are of the "constant
mesh" type. I.e. it's not the actual gear cogs that get shifted, but the
pair's connection to the output shaft, the so called "dog ring"

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

by **Tom Pabs** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:24:24

Maxx....

Wow, I'm really sorry to anyone who was upset by my post with the Suzuka
qualifying reference. I thought **I** was watching it on tape....not live!
It was "concurrent" to my writing the above post, that's why I mentioned
it.......I didn't know it was a live feed.

On my reference to "trail-braking"......

Well, this is an often misunderstood term. It has been discussed here
several times, but not for a long while. I use the definition of it I've
read from the Bondurant racing school manual. I've always used it since I
believe it is "simple enough" to be universal. What I mean by
"trail-braking" is any technique of decelerating the race car that is NOT
"threshold" braking. "Threshold" braking is a simple definition: It is
braking the race car at the absolute maximum braking efficiency (given the
conditions of track surface, tire -compound, wear, temperature, inflation,
etc. - tire patch, etc.) where any less application of brake - or more
application of brake, will reduce the braking efficiency. Another way to
think of it....and this is the source of the term used, is that you are
braking at the "threshold" of a point where braking efficiency declines
(just before that point, i.e., the word "threshold"). By definition (and a
thorough understanding of the friction circle), you can only "threshold
brake" a race car when traveling in a straight line.

Therefore, in my terms as I've come to learn them from Bondurant and other
racing schools (Russell uses pretty much this same
definition)...."trail-braking" is any form of braking while turning, while
applying throttle, etc. It can be done with the left foot, the right foot -
that doesn't matter (it also doesn't matter which foot you use for threshold
braking either).

Strictly speaking, if the race car becomes unstable during threshold
braking....then by definition you are not in threshold braking but have
stepped over the edge of it.....since braking efficiency has clearly
declined.

In a practical sense, race drivers tend to refer to threshold braking as
meaning any time they are attempting to slow the car down the maximum amount
in the shortest possible distance. They tend to refer to
trail-braking....as **anything** else! So, I believe that's why there is so
much confusion over the term, "trail-braking"......but that's only my
experience in racing here in the US, other's may be different.

To my knowledge, there is no form of racing, or race car type.....where the
use of the throttle is made when attempting to stabilize the race car under
threshold braking (using the throttle to stay in the zone of threshold
braking). If that were the case, then I am absolutely certain somebody
would have developed a form of ABS that would have used "throttle
application" instead of the standard "lock release" mechanism common to all
ABS systems.

However, in GPL that is not the case. When in the "threshold braking zone,"
if you add about 20% throttle input, the braking efficiency of the car
increases, not decreases. So, technically in GPL you can't be threshold
braking unless you are also using about 20% throttle. That doesn't exist in
the real world, and therefore, that is why I called it a "bug."

If you go back to HG and look at the second video tape (a full lap at Sears
Point)....its in the second article about the overhead pedal system (its
still in the HG archive news section), you'll note at least once, maybe
twice (I haven't looked at this tape in a while) that I have my right foot
on the throttle, but reach over with my left foot and tap or modulate the
brake without changing my right foot throttle input at that moment.
However, I do all of the rest of my braking with the right foot, heal and
toe technique so I can change down the gears without reducing my braking
input. I use that technique while going through the esses at
Sears....especially if I've carried slightly to much speed into T-8. I
learned this from two sources: The first was Parker Johnstone, who taught
for the Russell School at Sears for many years before going Indy car racing
(and who I consider to be one of the best sedan or GT road racing drivers of
all time).....and a sim racer by the name of George Sandman......who at one
time was one of the top GPL drivers (back in year one of GPL). By using
that technique, George could carry about 10 mph more speed down through the
esses (in N4) at Sears than I could (not using the right foot
tap)......which translated to about 8 car lengths by the time we hit the
braking zone into T-11. I thanked George for re-teaching me that original
lesson from Parker.

What I have found in GPL using the three-pedal analogue clutch
system........ is now that my left foot has been relegated to clutch work
only (again), my brain is comfortable with giving it a second assignment of
this occasional brake tap to settle the nose and improve steering response.
This "addition" of a driving tool has made me faster. Will it make everyone
else faster? Of course it will. Will this be used by the fastest guys in
GPL? I have no idea. But, my guess would be from a logical standpoint:
Eventually, yes.

Nice kicking these concepts around with you, Maxx....thanks!

Regards,

Tom

"Maxx" <medeson...@GPLinnotts.co.uk> wrote in message

news:e3ogstsfv2cbecag5rleiv8k3gmvsdi9mh@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:51:14 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com>
> wrote:

> >Maxx...

> >Based on my knowledge of "trail braking" used in karting.....and the
> >description you've posted below, I believe what he is referring to is
> >standard "trail braking" (often called "left foot braking") ....and this
has
> >been S.O.P in road racing for many, many years! I believe recent
> >developments in F1 "power-to-road" management have made trail braking
> >counter productive, primarily for the fuel consumption issues discussed
> >below. But, if you learned road race using it (and all good drivers
did),
> >then it's a tough "habit" to break.

> Tom,

> I agree that driving habits are hard to break, not least because they
> become so entrenched in your sub-concsious and generally, in a race,
> at his level, thats what is controlling your "mechanics" of driving.

> I have to come back on some other points you made though, it's
> only terminology but it is important and I feel myself drawn to
> respond to it everytime I see it.

> Trail-Braking per se has nothing to do with left or right foot
> braking. It has even less to do with the gas pedal.

> Most club racers, certainly here in the UK, if they use trail-braking
> at all will use the right foot to brake with zero gas. This is often
> bad news for a fast turn as you really need to have some gas on
> to keep the back-end under you (balanced throttle)

> The very adept may be able to keep a little gas applied as they
> turn in under trail-braking by using heel & toe, then rolling off
> the brake and back onto the gas. I think this is what you are
> now doing with the BRD setup.

> The reason many drivers in many different classes and formula
> would "intentionally" want to keep some gas on whilst braking
> is for "stability under braking". In real-life I don't think this
> would actually improve braking efficiency, all I know of physics
> (not a great deal) would tend to support this. It may help where a
> car has very poor brakes (i.e. Saloons) or brakes that heat up
> very rapidly (to the extent where they lose effectiveness whulst
> still braking).

> A problem you have with most saloons and formula cars with
> very little or no-wing (i.e. F Ford) is that if you do brake really
> hard the back end gets very, very light and any inbalance in
> the car of your driving will be accentuated, causing the car
> to fishtail at best, spin at worst.

> So, if you brake harder with stabilty you will generally be able to
> brake "better".

> I would think by what Jensen say's he was still using this in
> Formula 3.

> I think this is partly why it gets used in GPL but I also think
> the effect may be accentuated.

> OK, back to the left-foot. Obviously, left foot braking makes it
> much easier to trail-brake and provide throttle input, you are
> more easily able to vary the amount of brake and thriottle (once
> you get the left-foor trained) which is really tricky with the right
> foot.

> As Jensen says, he uses it for stability as do most of the drivers
> I have known. The reason I posted it here was that there have
> been a number of posters who have stated (after a few days
> at a race driving school) that it is definitely not used.

> >This is not the same thing that is referred to in GPL as simultaneous
brake
> >and throttle application to improve braking performance. That is
something
> >entirely different and is really a "bug" in GPL which has been exploited
to
> >the extent that if you don't use it, you are going to be beat badly by
those
> >who do. When I first learned of this (about a year ago) in GPL, I tried
to
> >use it regularly (it does work) but found it too awkward, because the
> >technique required when left foot braking conflicts with my "brains"
> >hand-eye-foot coordination that was developed over 15 years of real road
> >racing, using trail braking. So, I could brake much later into a
> >turn....but I was less coordinated in throttle/brake application getting
> >through the turn in its entirety, the net result of which was making me
> >slower, not faster in segment times. Perhaps those who don't already
have
> >imprinted brains with standard trail braking technique, can find a way to
> >use it....and not be slowed. I'm not saying that a person shouldn't try
> >it.....I guess that's the point I want to make.

> Yes, I find that no matter how hard I try and make my feet do
> something, they seem to be connected to my arms :) When
> I turn the wheel my left-foot (I left-foot brake) automatically
> comes off the brake and it just seems totally alien for me to
> actually "press" both pedals at

...

read more »

by **Tom Pabs** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:33:27

I found a copy of that video of a full lap at Sears (in N4) on my hard
drive.......this will save you time hunting for it at High Gear if you
wanted to view the left foot tap I refer to above:

http://www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/searslap-1.avi

Regards,

Tom

"Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:sF%x7.11769$gT6.7313289@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

> Maxx....

> Wow, I'm really sorry to anyone who was upset by my post with the Suzuka
> qualifying reference. I thought **I** was watching it on tape....not
live!
> It was "concurrent" to my writing the above post, that's why I mentioned
> it.......I didn't know it was a live feed.

> On my reference to "trail-braking"......

> Well, this is an often misunderstood term. It has been discussed here
> several times, but not for a long while. I use the definition of it I've
> read from the Bondurant racing school manual. I've always used it since I
> believe it is "simple enough" to be universal. What I mean by
> "trail-braking" is any technique of decelerating the race car that is NOT
> "threshold" braking. "Threshold" braking is a simple definition: It is
> braking the race car at the absolute maximum braking efficiency (given the
> conditions of track surface, tire -compound, wear, temperature, inflation,
> etc. - tire patch, etc.) where any less application of brake - or more
> application of brake, will reduce the braking efficiency. Another way to
> think of it....and this is the source of the term used, is that you are
> braking at the "threshold" of a point where braking efficiency declines
> (just before that point, i.e., the word "threshold"). By definition (and
a
> thorough understanding of the friction circle), you can only "threshold
> brake" a race car when traveling in a straight line.

> Therefore, in my terms as I've come to learn them from Bondurant and other
> racing schools (Russell uses pretty much this same
> definition)...."trail-braking" is any form of braking while turning, while
> applying throttle, etc. It can be done with the left foot, the right
foot -
> that doesn't matter (it also doesn't matter which foot you use for
threshold
> braking either).

> Strictly speaking, if the race car becomes unstable during threshold
> braking....then by definition you are not in threshold braking but have
> stepped over the edge of it.....since braking efficiency has clearly
> declined.

> In a practical sense, race drivers tend to refer to threshold braking as
> meaning any time they are attempting to slow the car down the maximum
amount
> in the shortest possible distance. They tend to refer to
> trail-braking....as **anything** else! So, I believe that's why there is
so
> much confusion over the term, "trail-braking"......but that's only my
> experience in racing here in the US, other's may be different.

> To my knowledge, there is no form of racing, or race car type.....where
the
> use of the throttle is made when attempting to stabilize the race car
under
> threshold braking (using the throttle to stay in the zone of threshold
> braking). If that were the case, then I am absolutely certain somebody
> would have developed a form of ABS that would have used "throttle
> application" instead of the standard "lock release" mechanism common to
all
> ABS systems.

> However, in GPL that is not the case. When in the "threshold braking
zone,"
> if you add about 20% throttle input, the braking efficiency of the car
> increases, not decreases. So, technically in GPL you can't be threshold
> braking unless you are also using about 20% throttle. That doesn't exist
in
> the real world, and therefore, that is why I called it a "bug."

> If you go back to HG and look at the second video tape (a full lap at
Sears
> Point)....its in the second article about the overhead pedal system (its
> still in the HG archive news section), you'll note at least once, maybe
> twice (I haven't looked at this tape in a while) that I have my right foot
> on the throttle, but reach over with my left foot and tap or modulate the
> brake without changing my right foot throttle input at that moment.
> However, I do all of the rest of my braking with the right foot, heal and
> toe technique so I can change down the gears without reducing my braking
> input. I use that technique while going through the esses at
> Sears....especially if I've carried slightly to much speed into T-8. I
> learned this from two sources: The first was Parker Johnstone, who taught
> for the Russell School at Sears for many years before going Indy car
racing
> (and who I consider to be one of the best sedan or GT road racing drivers
of
> all time).....and a sim racer by the name of George Sandman......who at
one
> time was one of the top GPL drivers (back in year one of GPL). By using
> that technique, George could carry about 10 mph more speed down through
the
> esses (in N4) at Sears than I could (not using the right foot
> tap)......which translated to about 8 car lengths by the time we hit the
> braking zone into T-11. I thanked George for re-teaching me that original
> lesson from Parker.

> What I have found in GPL using the three-pedal analogue clutch
> system........ is now that my left foot has been relegated to clutch work
> only (again), my brain is comfortable with giving it a second assignment
of
> this occasional brake tap to settle the nose and improve steering
response.
> This "addition" of a driving tool has made me faster. Will it make
everyone
> else faster? Of course it will. Will this be used by the fastest guys in
> GPL? I have no idea. But, my guess would be from a logical standpoint:
> Eventually, yes.

> Nice kicking these concepts around with you, Maxx....thanks!

> Regards,

> Tom

> "Maxx" <medeson...@GPLinnotts.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:e3ogstsfv2cbecag5rleiv8k3gmvsdi9mh@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:51:14 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com>
> > wrote:

> > >Maxx...

> > >Based on my knowledge of "trail braking" used in karting.....and the
> > >description you've posted below, I believe what he is referring to is
> > >standard "trail braking" (often called "left foot braking") ....and
this
> has
> > >been S.O.P in road racing for many, many years! I believe recent
> > >developments in F1 "power-to-road" management have made trail braking
> > >counter productive, primarily for the fuel consumption issues discussed
> > >below. But, if you learned road race using it (and all good drivers
> did),
> > >then it's a tough "habit" to break.

> > Tom,

> > I agree that driving habits are hard to break, not least because they
> > become so entrenched in your sub-concsious and generally, in a race,
> > at his level, thats what is controlling your "mechanics" of driving.

> > I have to come back on some other points you made though, it's
> > only terminology but it is important and I feel myself drawn to
> > respond to it everytime I see it.

> > Trail-Braking per se has nothing to do with left or right foot
> > braking. It has even less to do with the gas pedal.

> > Most club racers, certainly here in the UK, if they use trail-braking
> > at all will use the right foot to brake with zero gas. This is often
> > bad news for a fast turn as you really need to have some gas on
> > to keep the back-end under you (balanced throttle)

> > The very adept may be able to keep a little gas applied as they
> > turn in under trail-braking by using heel & toe, then rolling off
> > the brake and back onto the gas. I think this is what you are
> > now doing with the BRD setup.

> > The reason many drivers in many different classes and formula
> > would "intentionally" want to keep some gas on whilst braking
> > is for "stability under braking". In real-life I don't think this
> > would actually improve braking efficiency, all I know of physics
> > (not a great deal) would tend to support this. It may help where a
> > car has very poor brakes (i.e. Saloons) or brakes that heat up
> > very rapidly (to the extent where they lose effectiveness whulst
> > still braking).

> > A problem you have with most saloons and formula cars with
> > very little or no-wing (i.e. F Ford) is that if you do brake really
> > hard the back end gets very, very light and any inbalance in
> > the car of your driving will be accentuated, causing the car
> > to fishtail at best, spin at worst.

> > So, if you brake harder with stabilty you will generally be able to
> > brake "better".

> > I would think by what Jensen say's he was still using this in
> > Formula 3.

> > I think this is partly why it gets used in GPL but I also think
> > the effect may be accentuated.

> > OK, back to the left-foot. Obviously, left foot braking makes it
> > much easier to trail-brake and provide throttle input, you are
> > more easily able to vary the amount of brake and thriottle (once
> > you get the left-foor trained) which is really tricky with the right
> > foot.

> > As Jensen says, he uses it for stability as do most of the drivers
> > I have known. The reason I posted it here was that there have
> > been a number of posters who have stated (after a few days
> > at a race driving school) that it is definitely not used.

> > >This is not the same thing that is referred to in GPL as simultaneous
> brake
> > >and throttle application to improve braking performance. That is
> something
> > >entirely different and is really a "bug" in GPL which has been
exploited
> to
> > >the extent that if you don't use it, you are going to be beat badly by
> those
> > >who do. When I first learned of this (about a year ago) in GPL, I
tried
> to
> > >use it regularly (it does work) but found it too awkward, because the
> > >technique required when left foot braking conflicts with my "brains"
> > >hand-eye-foot coordination that was developed over 15 years of real
road
> > >racing, using trail braking. So, I could brake much

...

read more »

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:21:35

I'm not sure the GPL thing is a bug, although maybe I just don't
understand what you are talking about. Looking at it from a physics
perspective, the amount of weight shift during braking depends only on
the deceleration rate, not on which wheels are doing the decelerating.
So if you add some throttle and add some additional brake pressure, the
net effect should be the same deceleration rate but with the front
wheels doing more work, in other words the same effect as more front
brake bias. In straight line braking this would just make the front
wheels lock up sooner, but in brake-turning (just for you Starsky, I
won't call it trail braking) you have a different problem:
proportionately more weight is being shifted off of the inside rear and
onto the outside front. This means you need more forward brake bias in
brake-turning than you do in straight line braking, in order to prevent
the inside rear from locking up. You provide this adjustment by adding
some throttle as you initiate the turn. That allows you to keep the
deceleration rate high without the inside rear locking up. And to
answer Maxx's statement, the reason this adds stability is because the
instability you experience during braking is due to incipient rear wheel
lock. Hope that makes sense, I can't drive worth a damn so I have to
fall back on physics and vehicle dynamics to make sense of these things.
;o)

"Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message

news:sF%x7.11769$gT6.7313289@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

> Maxx....

> Wow, I'm really sorry to anyone who was upset by my post with the
Suzuka
> qualifying reference. I thought **I** was watching it on tape....not
live!
> It was "concurrent" to my writing the above post, that's why I
mentioned
> it.......I didn't know it was a live feed.

> On my reference to "trail-braking"......

> Well, this is an often misunderstood term. It has been discussed here
> several times, but not for a long while. I use the definition of it
I've
> read from the Bondurant racing school manual. I've always used it
since I
> believe it is "simple enough" to be universal. What I mean by
> "trail-braking" is any technique of decelerating the race car that is
NOT
> "threshold" braking. "Threshold" braking is a simple definition: It
is
> braking the race car at the absolute maximum braking efficiency (given
the
> conditions of track surface, tire -compound, wear, temperature,
inflation,
> etc. - tire patch, etc.) where any less application of brake - or more
> application of brake, will reduce the braking efficiency. Another way
to
> think of it....and this is the source of the term used, is that you
are
> braking at the "threshold" of a point where braking efficiency
declines
> (just before that point, i.e., the word "threshold"). By definition
(and a
> thorough understanding of the friction circle), you can only
"threshold
> brake" a race car when traveling in a straight line.

> Therefore, in my terms as I've come to learn them from Bondurant and
other
> racing schools (Russell uses pretty much this same
> definition)...."trail-braking" is any form of braking while turning,
while
> applying throttle, etc. It can be done with the left foot, the right
foot -
> that doesn't matter (it also doesn't matter which foot you use for
threshold
> braking either).

> Strictly speaking, if the race car becomes unstable during threshold
> braking....then by definition you are not in threshold braking but
have
> stepped over the edge of it.....since braking efficiency has clearly
> declined.

> In a practical sense, race drivers tend to refer to threshold braking
as
> meaning any time they are attempting to slow the car down the maximum
amount
> in the shortest possible distance. They tend to refer to
> trail-braking....as **anything** else! So, I believe that's why there
is so
> much confusion over the term, "trail-braking"......but that's only my
> experience in racing here in the US, other's may be different.

> To my knowledge, there is no form of racing, or race car
type.....where the
> use of the throttle is made when attempting to stabilize the race car
under
> threshold braking (using the throttle to stay in the zone of threshold
> braking). If that were the case, then I am absolutely certain
somebody
> would have developed a form of ABS that would have used "throttle
> application" instead of the standard "lock release" mechanism common
to all
> ABS systems.

> However, in GPL that is not the case. When in the "threshold braking
zone,"
> if you add about 20% throttle input, the braking efficiency of the car
> increases, not decreases. So, technically in GPL you can't be
threshold
> braking unless you are also using about 20% throttle. That doesn't
exist in
> the real world, and therefore, that is why I called it a "bug."

> If you go back to HG and look at the second video tape (a full lap at
Sears
> Point)....its in the second article about the overhead pedal system
(its
> still in the HG archive news section), you'll note at least once,
maybe
> twice (I haven't looked at this tape in a while) that I have my right
foot
> on the throttle, but reach over with my left foot and tap or modulate
the
> brake without changing my right foot throttle input at that moment.
> However, I do all of the rest of my braking with the right foot, heal
and
> toe technique so I can change down the gears without reducing my
braking
> input. I use that technique while going through the esses at
> Sears....especially if I've carried slightly to much speed into T-8.
I
> learned this from two sources: The first was Parker Johnstone, who
taught
> for the Russell School at Sears for many years before going Indy car
racing
> (and who I consider to be one of the best sedan or GT road racing
drivers of
> all time).....and a sim racer by the name of George Sandman......who
at one
> time was one of the top GPL drivers (back in year one of GPL). By
using
> that technique, George could carry about 10 mph more speed down
through the
> esses (in N4) at Sears than I could (not using the right foot
> tap)......which translated to about 8 car lengths by the time we hit
the
> braking zone into T-11. I thanked George for re-teaching me that
original
> lesson from Parker.

> What I have found in GPL using the three-pedal analogue clutch
> system........ is now that my left foot has been relegated to clutch
work
> only (again), my brain is comfortable with giving it a second
assignment of
> this occasional brake tap to settle the nose and improve steering
response.
> This "addition" of a driving tool has made me faster. Will it make
everyone
> else faster? Of course it will. Will this be used by the fastest
guys in
> GPL? I have no idea. But, my guess would be from a logical
standpoint:
> Eventually, yes.

> Nice kicking these concepts around with you, Maxx....thanks!

> Regards,

> Tom

> "Maxx" <medeson...@GPLinnotts.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:e3ogstsfv2cbecag5rleiv8k3gmvsdi9mh@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:51:14 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com>
> > wrote:

> > >Maxx...

> > >Based on my knowledge of "trail braking" used in karting.....and
the
> > >description you've posted below, I believe what he is referring to
is
> > >standard "trail braking" (often called "left foot braking") ....and
this
> has
> > >been S.O.P in road racing for many, many years! I believe recent
> > >developments in F1 "power-to-road" management have made trail
braking
> > >counter productive, primarily for the fuel consumption issues
discussed
> > >below. But, if you learned road race using it (and all good
drivers
> did),
> > >then it's a tough "habit" to break.

> > Tom,

> > I agree that driving habits are hard to break, not least because
they
> > become so entrenched in your sub-concsious and generally, in a race,
> > at his level, thats what is controlling your "mechanics" of driving.

> > I have to come back on some other points you made though, it's
> > only terminology but it is important and I feel myself drawn to
> > respond to it everytime I see it.

> > Trail-Braking per se has nothing to do with left or right foot
> > braking. It has even less to do with the gas pedal.

> > Most club racers, certainly here in the UK, if they use
trail-braking
> > at all will use the right foot to brake with zero gas. This is often
> > bad news for a fast turn as you really need to have some gas on
> > to keep the back-end under you (balanced throttle)

> > The very adept may be able to keep a little gas applied as they
> > turn in under trail-braking by using heel & toe, then rolling off
> > the brake and back onto the gas. I think this is what you are
> > now doing with the BRD setup.

> > The reason many drivers in many different classes and formula
> > would "intentionally" want to keep some gas on whilst braking
> > is for "stability under braking". In real-life I don't think this
> > would actually improve braking efficiency, all I know of physics
> > (not a great deal) would tend to support this. It may help where a
> > car has very poor brakes (i.e. Saloons) or brakes that heat up
> > very rapidly (to the extent where they lose effectiveness whulst
> > still braking).

> > A problem you have with most saloons and formula cars with
> > very little or no-wing (i.e. F Ford) is that if you do brake really
> > hard the back end gets very, very light and any inbalance in
> > the car of your driving will be accentuated, causing the car
> > to fishtail at best, spin at worst.

> > So, if you brake harder with stabilty you will generally be able to
> > brake "better".

> > I would think by what Jensen say's he was still using this in
> > Formula 3.

> > I think this is partly why it gets used in GPL but I also think
> > the effect may be accentuated.

> > OK, back to the left-foot. Obviously, left foot braking makes it
> > much easier to trail-brake and provide throttle input, you are

...

read more »

by **Alan Orto** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:29:46

You are probably right, but I was talking about the straight cut gears and
non syncro gear boxes in racing as a whole, not just single seaters. If they
did get rid of that and force drivers to heel toe then the racing would be
more interesting(more unforced errors) and sound better too since every
driver would have a different sized blip.

by **Maxx** » Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:00:06

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:24:24 GMT, "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com>
wrote:

Tom,

>Wow, I'm really sorry to anyone who was upset by my post with the Suzuka
>qualifying reference. I thought **I** was watching it on tape....not live!
>It was "concurrent" to my writing the above post, that's why I mentioned
>it.......I didn't know it was a live feed.

I think the lack of somewhat "hot" replies means you didn't spoil it
for anyone, I did tape it (was on live at 5:00am her ein UK) but
watched it when I got up at 9:00.

>On my reference to "trail-braking"......

>Well, this is an often misunderstood term. It has been discussed here
>several times, but not for a long while. I use the definition of it I've
>read from the Bondurant racing school manual. I've always used it since I
>believe it is "simple enough" to be universal. What I mean by
>"trail-braking" is any technique of decelerating the race car that is NOT
>"threshold" braking.

I've not read the Bondurant books and not sure how far they take
the process of competition driving. It surprises me that they would
say or infer this although in reality where would one go to find the
true definition of trail-braking?

There probably isn't one and I can well understand there being
differences in interpretation, especially between UK & US where
we do tend to use different terminology (i.e. understeer v. push)

I'm certainly aware of a number of different braking techniques
and definition/names.

Even threshold braking is often used to describe another technique
which I know as cadence braking.

I perhaps should re-iterate where my understandings come from for
anyone reading who doesn't already know. I'll try and be brief.
-------
Did 7-day race driving course with Jim Russell UK in 1990.
Raced 90-95 mainly Saloons but also F.Ford, F.Vauxhall
Junior, F.Vauxhall Lotus (Sim to F. Opel, F.Renault). Sports 2000
Very Succesfull inc 3rd in World Scholarship in 90, UK Astra
Champ in 94

Worked as an Instructor for Jim Russsell 92-95 and drove a wide
array of competition cars. I took both instructing and learning/
driving very seriously so went out of my way to explore all
aspects.
--------

The main aspect of the above is not the on-track success, there
are those who are equally as acomplished who know very little
of definitions etc. but I did take instructing very seriously

Anway, perhaps having mentioned it I should explain what I mean
by Cadence braking. First, we are in 100% accord in your definition
of threshold braking, the only thing I'd add, which I may expand on
later, is that weight transfer is the biggest issue in regard to where
the threshhold is and this goes someway to explaining why gas+
brake is beneficial [more later].

Cadence Braking is IMU (In my Understanding) where the driver
brakes until he feels that he has passed (or will pass) the threshold
and backs off slightly, then gets back on again. In effect a human
fom of ABS.

In some circumstances this can actually shorten braking distances
more than any other technique (i.e. in VERY slippy conditions ) i.e.
ICE/Snow/Standing water/Oil).

I have some other terms for typers of braking which to be honest I
have no idea where they come from. They may well be my own
as I did use (develop?) a vocabulary to explain things rather
than be overly wordy.

An example would be "comfort brake/stabilising brake". I'd use
this to describe the touching of the brakes prior to a long sweeper
or entry to/run through a chicane where there was significant
"build up" of weight transfer. Dragging the brake would "settle"
or "tighten" the car equalising to soem degree the tire contact
patch. I'm sure I've heard this used by others so do think it is
a well recognised term.

There are one of two other which I think maybe my own
invention and more relevenant to Saloons or even Rallying,
i.e. pitch brake" which I use to describe a short-sharp stab
of the brake to pitch the car into a corner.

Anyway I digress.

The reason I jumped on your replay was that I really don't think
that any definition of trail-braking I have heard of read has anything
to do with left or right foot braking, nor to the simultaneous
application of throttle. As it's a very hot topic in GPL and the
term is used so widely I was keen to dispel any misunderstandings.

However, as I said earlier, what is the true definition of
trail-braking. Even ignoring the left/right foot and the gas issue
many people understand trail-braking to be "braking up to the
apex". It can be of course but AFAIK it is simply the act of
keeping some brake application at or after the point of turn-in.

In fact the real benefit of trail-braking is just at the point of
turn-in and is simply to provide better front-wheel grip at this
point. Many feel they don't trail-brake but do in fact "trail
the brake" on turn-in. I beleive I read that Jackie Stewart or
some other famous 60s/70s era driver was asked about trail-
braking and replied he didn't do it. On being driven round
by jackie? the questioner noted that he was in fact trailing
the brake on turn-in and when asked Jackie? said "I'm
just setting the car up for the corner".

> "Threshold" braking is a simple definition: It is
>braking the race car at the absolute maximum braking efficiency (given the
>conditions of track surface, tire -compound, wear, temperature, inflation,
>etc. - tire patch, etc.) where any less application of brake - or more
>application of brake, will reduce the braking efficiency. Another way to
>think of it....and this is the source of the term used, is that you are
>braking at the "threshold" of a point where braking efficiency declines
>(just before that point, i.e., the word "threshold"). By definition (and a
>thorough understanding of the friction circle), you can only "threshold
>brake" a race car when traveling in a straight line.

I'm not sure that is totally true, assuming you take everything into
account you can threshold brake anywhere, just that you have to
allow much more of the friction circle to cornering than braking.

Trail-Braking is a way of using the "unused" percentage of the
friction circle that you get on corner entry by not needing all of it
(unless you are on a screamer) for cornering.

I think though definitions need to be usefull more than totally
accurate and threshold braking to me is as you describe. I
would further define the threshold as the point at which
decellerative force is at it's maximum which means that the
tires are in fact in a forward "slide" (i.e. the tires is rotating
slower than the if it were free-rolling, hence in a slide). There
is probably a formula for this, along the lines of the ideal tire
slip-angle but it's one definition I don't know. The important
point being that this is ther true threshold that very few drivers
will reach at any corner and only the very best at some corners.

Still I feel tnat Threshold Braking can be sued to describe
hard-consistent braking as opposed to cadence, hard-variable
braking.

>Therefore, in my terms as I've come to learn them from Bondurant and other
>racing schools (Russell uses pretty much this same
>definition)...."trail-braking" is any form of braking while turning, while
>applying throttle, etc. It can be done with the left foot, the right foot -
>that doesn't matter (it also doesn't matter which foot you use for threshold
>braking either).

Well I half agree, you have now gotten away from the left-foot/right-
foot association but certainly no-one I know in racing or at Jim
Russell would associate the application of gas with trail-braking.

If I was describing trail-braking with gas I would say "trail-brake
into the corner with a trailing throttle".

Equally, to instruct a driver to brake with gas I would say "Brake at
the 100Mtr board with a trailing throttle"

>Strictly speaking, if the race car becomes unstable during threshold
>braking....then by definition you are not in threshold braking but have
>stepped over the edge of it.....since braking efficiency has clearly
>declined.

I'm sure it's just words we are confusing each other with Tom and I'm
probably being a little pedantic but I feel I need to explain this
further.

You also have to take into account overall grip, back v. front and
side v. side. When braking hard and if the setup and you are
able to get maximum retardation form all 4 tires (virtually
impossible due to the factors you descibe) the grip will be
many times greater at the front than the rear. What I mean here
is if the car was frozen at that point with the grip levels stating
as they are it would take much less effort to push the back sideways
than the front.

The very act of Threshold braking is bound to generate some
degree of lateral force, caused by any one of the factors you
describe, and more asynch camber, diffs in tire pressure, temps,
road camber, road grip, driver steering input, weight inbalance
caused by factors prior to initial braking (i.e may have just
come through a curve). Also, the action of the diff going from
power to coast

Applying some degree of trailing throttle will help smooth
this out to some degree, perhaps the most important smoothing
out has to do with smoothing out the transition from power side
to coast side on the diff.

It is pedantic but is why many driver will use a trailing throttle and
why a stability gained by using a trailing throttle can help improve
braking by allowing the driver to brake a fraction harder.

>In a practical sense, race drivers tend to refer to threshold braking as
>meaning any time they are attempting to slow the car down the maximum amount
>in the shortest possible distance.

I agree.

> They tend to refer to >trail-braking....as **anything** else! So, I
>believe that's why there is so >much confusion over the term,
>"trail-braking"......but that's only my >experience in racing here in
>the US, other's may be different.

I find that hard to believe and am sure this would not be taught at
Jim Russell. ALTHOUGH, even on ...

read more »

by **Maxx** » Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:12:32

Haqsau,

Absolutely, 100%.

I'm not sure on the physics of it but this may well be whats
happening.

You will note that the biggest users of gas+brake are also those
with the lowest Brake Bias, often as low as 48%. Brake hard
without gas with this setting and you'd be hard pushed to not
spin unles you were going dead straight.

Make perfect sense and it what I have been trying to get across many
times. It's really all from experience as I have not read anything on
Vehicle Dynamics.

You can feel it much more in a real-car, you can feel the weight
going forward, you can also feel the grip you have at all 4 tires
and any minor instabilities. Touch the gas a little and they go away
as the chassis tightens (best way I can describe the feeling).

I do think GPL is innacurate in the way it models this but have seen
no analysis, it's just my impression. I have seen (done) analsysis of
certain aspects of GPL with regard to speed-shifting and what looks
like clutch-slip which shows that there is indeed quirks in the GPL
tire model.

Maxx

rec.autos.simulators

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)

Throttle whilst Braking in real-life (conf from real F1 driver)