rec.autos.simulators

:
: > (I wrote before checking first)
: > I particularly enjoyed your complaint before that GT had no sound of the
: > shifter. The only cars where the shifter makes a sound, particularly
: > to be heard at speed, are the open metal-gate ferraris, which GT does
: > not have. Otherwise its as pointless as modelling *** dice***
: > from a mirror.
:
: Please check who you're quoting. I've not written anything like
: that.

You are right of course. It was someone else who was bemoaning the
lack of the shift sound in GT compared to NFS3. Sorry, very slapdash,
my dejanews was down at the time I should have double-checked :)
(the cat ate my homework).

Anyway... you and moby must be professional deflaters, wouldnt
it be fun to get unabashedly enthusiastic about a release every
now and again? especially when it deserves a honeymoon, like GT.
the critics will come out later.. never fear.

ah well.
just enjoy the game. Both games...

Again, I've stated in my review that those looking for incredible in
game graphics might be left a little flat.  We're really not
disagreeing here.  Our priorities may be somewhat different, but I'm
not arguing facts with you.

Randy

In article

   Perhaps I should note that I use the front bumper view, which is more
immersive to me. I also noticed in the Japanese version of GT that if you
changed the setting for the drivers view to narrow, or wide, narrow gave
the slowest sensation of speed, while wide moved faster than all views. I
agree that the graphics are not totaly amazing. As many reviewers may have
stated. As a matter of fact V-rally has crisper graphics in my opinion.
But GT's graphics are very good, and do not detract from the game. I have
not touched v-rally since January.. and I just stared to get back into F1
CE. Not because I am tired of GT. Rather just to get a different race
experience. But that says a heck of alot about GT. I cannot get enough of
this game! When GT 2 comes out I will probably have a heart attack.

-p

--
Peter A. Brinkley
VS Productions
Multimedia Composer/Arranger & Sound Designer
*Please remove (##) from my address when replying personally*

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Also like I just said, there is no clear distinction to arcade racers
and sims, it is a scale. Motorhead is clearly near the arcade end,
while GPL (after they add damage model etc. to the full game) is
probably nearest to the sim end of all known games. In fact it is the
first racing game I know which even models the clutch, I had always
found it a pity that other driving games didn't have it. Next we need
pedals which have a clutch too. :-)

| Hm, maybe you're right and GT's videos don't get as stale as replays
| usually do after a week - there's a few hundred cars and eleven tracks
| to watch, after all. I've still got a bad feeling about considering
| replays as part of the graphics score but that's personal opinion, of
| course.

I'm not happy with Randy's two graphics scores, too, but he does have
a point, since most replays shown to bystanders are not in***pit/
bumper perspective, which I think is the most often used for racing.

| This is where I totally disagree. In my opinion, the world of racing
| games changed forever after V-Rally (for those without a PSX: V-Rally
| was the first PSX racer that replaced the typical cheap night modes
| like adding black to an object's color depending on how far away it is
| or even painting the screen increasingly dark towards the top
| with real headlights that illuminate the night around the car. IMHO
| this resulted in far more real and stunningly beautiful night races).
| This game has shown that it's possible to depict night driving roughly
| the way we're seeing it in real life. And NFS3 even improved upon this
| effect by adding high/dimmed light (and even opponents that get mad at
| you if you're approaching them with high beam turned on). This kind of
| night races IMHO is no "cool little arcade racing feature", it's a
| definite step forward that I simply want to see in every racer. As
| beautiful as GT's night races are, once you've experienced real
| headlights it looks stale (to me at least).

I also have V-Rally and think the night-races there are a great addition
to the game, but their technical standard is not up to the rest.
I enjoy the fog or the snowy mountain tracks more - but my overall
winner is the jungle track, where you can drive at 'impossible' speeds.
As technical brilliant and innovatice NFS3 may be - mad opponents
because of teasing them with the lights is hardly a feature for a sports
racing simulation. NFS3 is more of a street racer - arcade or sim...

I also said that IMO realistic light-sourcing is not the foremost thing to
simulate - if I can get it, fine - if not, the game is not being degraded.
And to conclude this point - I don't need every cool feature in every
racing game - then there would be no difference at all. Want to upgrade
your cars in NFS3, want to start with one car only and earn all the others
through collecting cash ? I doubt it.

| Nope, no dust on cars in NFS3. On the other side there are tire-marks
| that stay on the track, the game remembers every roadsign I've rammed
| in my last lap so there are a bunch of nice little touches present in
| NFS3 that add to the realism.

Tire-marks and a *realistic* damage-model are on the wishing-list for GT2,
though I would prefer damages on the own car, rather than damages
on the track.

| But that's the problem. GT features rather convincing race tracks in
| day races, on the other side in night races it has to use special
| well-lit city courses (I guess night races through cities are not that
| realistic). If GT would have real headlights the designers of the game
| could have added night races to about every track, just like in NFS3.

Yes, they could, but the question is, if they had to... the night races
in GT look IMO great. There may be better ones - remember I haven't
seen NFS3 yet - but I think they used their finished engine and imple-
mented the light auras of the street lamps and *voila* got a night race...
To think of a *correct* shading model of a night race with true environ-
ment texture mapping (think of your headlights)...shudder...
If they program this into GT2 on the PlayStation I will erect a holy
shrine for the programmers in my bed room !

| Yes, definitely. Actually I found me in the strange situation of
| painstakingly pointing out every minor fault of this incredible
| game in order to make my point.

This alone makes it a great game.
I think there'll never be a (racing)game which offers everything to
everyone - but considering the limited resources of the PlayStation
I'll anxiously await games like GT2, or for that matter NFS4, because
I don't have the slightest hint what they'll add to them.

| Very true. Still, if we're talking about graphics only, I
| consider NFS3 superior in about every respect except replays
| and actually don't see why a lot of reviews praised GT's
| graphics as the best ever. For me in terms of graphics
| GT redefined the state of the art of replays, NFS3 did the
| same for about everything else.

Though I can't compare these two games as good as you can, I
strongly doubt that NFS3 has such beautifully rendered cars as GT
O.K. - the glitzy mega cars like Lamborghinis etc. are not included,
but I think the old Stingray (or nearly any other car) with these
brilliant paint jobs and simulated environment mapping in GT by far
outweights this.
Still, you underlined my decision to get NFS3 someday... ;-)

| Karlheinz

Marcus Heuser
(Remove 'MakeMyDay' from address !)

Pete

Now, if I wanted to take issue with Randy's comparative scores of GT and
NFS3, it would be with the audio.  An 80+ for NFS3 and a 90+ for GT?
I'd reverse them, no doubt about it.  Sorry Randy.  That's why you write
'em and I read 'em.  On balance, I think you did a great job on both.

*Very* well said.

Sorry Marcus, I've missed your point here.  What technical standard is
not up to the rest of what?  

What fog?  I know it lists the conditions as foggy, but I've yet to see
it.  Is there actually fog in V-Rally that I've yet to see?  That would
be cool.

The snow is well done and the lens flare in V-Rally is the most
convincing yet.  I know it's used in too many games but it's just so
cool here.

Rearranging your words, 'a technically brilliant arcade racer' pretty
much sums up NFS3 IMO.

Not foremost of course, but IMO it adds considerably to the immersive
quality of the game.

Why not?  That would be the best of all possible worlds.

No, but your'e talking game structure now as opposed to technical
attributes like light sourcing.

Skid marks that vary in intensity and have little plumes of smoke rise
up from them when you lay them down.

And the roadsign thing is one of the coolest.  Ever glance in your
rear-view and watch 'em fly?

I'm with you here.  Marcus, have you seen the way damage is modeled in
Rally Cross?  It's very well done.

I think you'll be impressed.

LOL.  Will you post pictures for all to see?  ;>)

Strange how we sometimes do that isn't it?

As will any racing fan worth his/her salt.

Well said again.  Although my exposure to GT has been limited, so far
I'm in the minority that agrees with you.

It doesn't.

You may or may not change your mind after you've seen NFS3.

As you should. ;>)

Pete

Thanks :)

Randy

|
| While I share Karlheinz' enthusiasm for NFS3's roadside scenery,
| overall, I think Randy's graphics scores are pretty reasonable.  Yes
| GT's replays are dazzling if you choose to watch them, but the in-game
| graphics, in particular the car models are also very good.  More than
| anything else though, the thing that blows me away about GT's graphics
| is the way that the cars ride on their suspension.  No other PSX racer
| that I've seen has portrayed this anywhere near as realistically as does
| GT.  Very, very impressive.

Amen.
And its the replays where one can see this best.

| Now, if I wanted to take issue with Randy's comparative scores of GT and
| NFS3, it would be with the audio.  An 80+ for NFS3 and a 90+ for GT?
| I'd reverse them, no doubt about it.  Sorry Randy.  That's why you write
| 'em and I read 'em.  On balance, I think you did a great job on both.

I also read his review and found it as *complete* as a review can get.
A much higher standard than every magazine review I've read.

| > I also have V-Rally and think the night-races there are a great
addition
| > to the game, but their technical standard is not up to the rest.
|
| Sorry Marcus, I've missed your point here.  What technical standard is
| not up to the rest of what?  

Expanation for my above statement: I've found the lighting model
inconsistent. The lights on the car are good but the lighting on the
streets is much too jumpy. It's flickering so much I get a headache.
Play the Sweden night track and notice how much this flickering is
simply not on par with the daylight scenery, for example. Apart from
that, it highlights the seams of the polygons, one can clearly see the
black lines between them - I found this annoying as well.

| > I enjoy the fog
|
| What fog?  I know it lists the conditions as foggy, but I've yet to see
| it.  Is there actually fog in V-Rally that I've yet to see?  That would
| be cool.

Errrm...sorry. Must've been a freudian mispacement - I meant the rain,
which I found graphically pleasant. I think I also searched for 'real' fog
in the various 'fog-tracks' and found none. Should've played Turok
instead...

| > And to conclude this point - I don't need every cool feature in every
| > racing game - then there would be no difference at all.
|
| Why not?  That would be the best of all possible worlds.

I'm with you when everything is done to ensure the *most* realistic
impression. It's just that I don't need real headlights as much when
I race 95% in broad daylight.
And I confess that I meant with 'every cool feature' also things that
affect game structure, as you point out below.

| > Want to upgrade
| > your cars in NFS3, want to start with one car only and earn all the
others
| > through collecting cash ? I doubt it.

| Skid marks that vary in intensity and have little plumes of smoke rise
| up from them when you lay them down.

And add some oil stains on the aspalt!  And I want the foam of the fire
extinguisher after a big collision...

| > Tire-marks and a *realistic* damage-model are on the wishing-list for
GT2,
| > though I would prefer damages on the own car, rather than damages
| > on the track.
|
| I'm with you here.  Marcus, have you seen the way damage is modeled in
| Rally Cross?  It's very well done.

No I haven't, I've been told it has very short tracks and is rather bouncy.
Is that true ?  Is this game a keeper or a rental ? Please give your
opinion.

| > - but I think they used their finished engine and imple-
| > mented the light auras of the street lamps and *voila* got a night
race...
| > To think of a *correct* shading model of a night race with true
environ-
| > ment texture mapping (think of your headlights)...shudder...
| > If they program this into GT2 on the PlayStation I will erect a holy
| > shrine for the programmers in my bed room !
|
| LOL.  Will you post pictures for all to see?  ;>)

Why not ?  The word stands. I just hope my mother won't see it...

|
| Pete

--
Marcus Heuser
(Remove 'MakeMyDay' from address !)

Sorry, it's just too hard to fathom a  racing game where a game pad
is the controller, it just doesn't cut it.

Regards,

Rick Carlson

On Sun, 17 May 1998 16:46:18 -0400, Patrick Shumar