rec.autos.simulators

by **GraDe** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

I've been spending some time around Monza lately to get a bit of my times.

I've discovered something tough, maybe because of a few corners being very
slow from 6th gear straight.

I've found mainly that locking the brakes seems very in-accurate in GPL. Of
course, why "feel" of looking the brakes is right, you can't steer, the
wheels stop and the smoke fly's, yes, if looks very real, however:

As we all know to get maximum braking you need to brake as hard as possible,
but once you lock the brakes you distance is greater.

Now, maybe this is just my problem I don't know but.....
When trying not to lock the brakes it's fairly easy t do with lots of
practice. However in an effort to reduce braking distances slightly to lesmo
1 and Parabolica like the AI were doing I tried to brake harder, sure enough
It worked and the brakes still didn't lock. Next, the back fishtails and
......wipe out!

Now, almost throwing my hat at hit as I came to parabolic for a 100th time
It seemed I just slammed the brakes on. Brakes locked but that was ok, I
wasn't trying to trailbrake.
Since the fronts were locked straight the car could jink left or right any
little bit, yet the braking distance dropped unbelievably.

Now, my question is, if it were the case that the braking as unrealistic
surely I wouldn't be the first to notice!?!?!
Why is it that locking the brakes makes you slow much quicker than not
braking fully?
The easy answer is because the brake is to the floor, but if the wheels are
locked the braking distance should be greater...... why am I noticing this?

by **Sjon Stigte** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

yeah, you are so right... everybody is complaining about the brakes...

Maybe you should download the brakes patch, this corrects alot...

-- Sjon

by **Steven Dickso** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

Which begs the question: what brake patch and from where can it be
downloaded?
S.

by **Joe Murph** » Sat, 13 May 2000 04:00:00

First you need to adjust the handbrake?

> > yeah, you are so right... everybody is complaining about the brakes...

> > Maybe you should download the brakes patch, this corrects alot...

> Which begs the question: what brake patch and from where can it be
> downloaded?
> S.

by **Matthew V. Jessic** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Have you played around with the brake bias?
Less front braking (more presure to the rear) will give you more
overall braking capability... until the rear tires start locking first.

If you seem to get more braking after front lockup, perhaps
you weren't at threshold in the previous test. If I lock the fronts going
braking deep into Parabolica, I end up picking sand out of my teeth ;)
(Definitely less deceleration after front lockup for me.)

> I've been spending some time around Monza lately to get a bit of my times.

> I've discovered something tough, maybe because of a few corners being very
> slow from 6th gear straight.

> I've found mainly that locking the brakes seems very in-accurate in GPL. Of
> course, why "feel" of looking the brakes is right, you can't steer, the
> wheels stop and the smoke fly's, yes, if looks very real, however:

> As we all know to get maximum braking you need to brake as hard as possible,
> but once you lock the brakes you distance is greater.

> Now, maybe this is just my problem I don't know but.....
> When trying not to lock the brakes it's fairly easy t do with lots of
> practice. However in an effort to reduce braking distances slightly to lesmo
> 1 and Parabolica like the AI were doing I tried to brake harder, sure enough
> It worked and the brakes still didn't lock. Next, the back fishtails and
> ......wipe out!

> Now, almost throwing my hat at hit as I came to parabolic for a 100th time
> It seemed I just slammed the brakes on. Brakes locked but that was ok, I
> wasn't trying to trailbrake.
> Since the fronts were locked straight the car could jink left or right any
> little bit, yet the braking distance dropped unbelievably.

> Now, my question is, if it were the case that the braking as unrealistic
> surely I wouldn't be the first to notice!?!?!
> Why is it that locking the brakes makes you slow much quicker than not
> braking fully?
> The easy answer is because the brake is to the floor, but if the wheels are
> locked the braking distance should be greater...... why am I noticing this?

by **Simon Brow** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

Surely if the brakes are locked and the wheels aren't spinning at all you
will get maximum deceleration.
The main reason to avoid locking brakes is that it can make you spin and you
lose the ability to control the cars direction.

by **GraDe** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

No no no Simon,
If you lock the brakes while turning in you'll spin,
If you lock the brakes while holding a straight line you'll be fine, which
again is a flaw, even in a straight line, persistent locked brakes should
eventually put you in circles.

I find that if you brake hard the car goes out of control but if you stamp
on the brakes before it ahs time the brakes lock straight on and you
decelerate all the better.

Locking the brakes even if you do manage to hold the car straight in real
life greatly extends braking distance, even sims like MGPRS2 and F1 2000
model this.

I won't go into the physics of it all but when the wheel is rotating it
means it is gripping the tarmac. when you slow the wheel rotation down by
braking, as long as the wheel is still rotation it is gripping the tarmac
and slowing the car down with it.
If the brakes lock however, there is no rotation of the wheels. The means no
grip and the wheels are just skidding over the ground. The ONLY force in
this case that should make the car slow down is that fact that there is
nothing driving the car forward as you are not accelerating, I essentially
like coming off the throttle and letting the car slow that way.

This really runs the game for me after learning this, it's not in the least
bit realistic. Physically the cars in GPL lock there brakes but they seems
to maintain the impact of:
the Lower the pedal the quicker you stop which is incorrect when locking the
brakes up.

by **Jarno Bierma** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

What brake bias do you use ?
i use 53 and when i drive on the edge and i lock my brakes i miss the corner.

_
Jarno

> I've been spending some time around Monza lately to get a bit of my times.

> I've discovered something tough, maybe because of a few corners being very
> slow from 6th gear straight.

> I've found mainly that locking the brakes seems very in-accurate in GPL. Of
> course, why "feel" of looking the brakes is right, you can't steer, the
> wheels stop and the smoke fly's, yes, if looks very real, however:

> As we all know to get maximum braking you need to brake as hard as possible,
> but once you lock the brakes you distance is greater.

> Now, maybe this is just my problem I don't know but.....
> When trying not to lock the brakes it's fairly easy t do with lots of
> practice. However in an effort to reduce braking distances slightly to lesmo
> 1 and Parabolica like the AI were doing I tried to brake harder, sure enough
> It worked and the brakes still didn't lock. Next, the back fishtails and
> ......wipe out!

> Now, almost throwing my hat at hit as I came to parabolic for a 100th time
> It seemed I just slammed the brakes on. Brakes locked but that was ok, I
> wasn't trying to trailbrake.
> Since the fronts were locked straight the car could jink left or right any
> little bit, yet the braking distance dropped unbelievably.

> Now, my question is, if it were the case that the braking as unrealistic
> surely I wouldn't be the first to notice!?!?!
> Why is it that locking the brakes makes you slow much quicker than not
> braking fully?
> The easy answer is because the brake is to the floor, but if the wheels are
> locked the braking distance should be greater...... why am I noticing this?

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

> Surely if the brakes are locked and the wheels aren't spinning at
> all you will get maximum deceleration.

Nope, locking the wheels will get you less than optimum deceleration.
This is because tires give the most grip when just slightly sliding
(compare acceleration, it is easy to demonstrate that full throttle
acceleration with wildly spinning wheels is far from optimal :-)

Even with the loss of deceleration, this is still correct imo.

_
Mats Lofkvist

by **Coli** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

No. You will get optimum braking when your tires are on the threshold of
locking up. When tires are skidding you get nowhere near full braking
force. It's an absolute myth that you get maximum braking by standing on
the brakes and skidding along.

Cheers,
...Colin

by **Richard Walke** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

It is worthwhile noting though that with the wheels fully locked many
drivers will still find greater deceleration than with their normal
braking. Optimum deceleration is easier said than done ;-)

Cheers,
Richard

by **Alan Orto** » Sun, 14 May 2000 04:00:00

I'm not sure if it's true but I read that you'll lose 30% of your
braking power or grip with the tires locked. So your braking distance
will be 30% farther. For the optimum braking grip the tire will be
sliping around 10%. So really the tires are skiding but not locked. The
30% and 10% is probably different with each type of tire.

> >Nope, locking the wheels will get you less than optimum deceleration.
> >This is because tires give the most grip when just slightly sliding

> It is worthwhile noting though that with the wheels fully locked many
> drivers will still find greater deceleration than with their normal
> braking. Optimum deceleration is easier said than done ;-)

> Cheers,
> Richard

by **Simon Brow** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Thanks for taking the time to explain that. It doesn't exactly ruin the
game for me, but it's a disapointment. It's tempting when playing to GPL to
imagine that it's nearly perfect.

by **Alan Orto** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Your braking distance will be longer in gpl if you lock up the brakes.
Try this test.
Put 100% front brake bias.
Then goto monza and move down the front straight then turn around and
accelerate to redline in second gear. When you hit the start finish line
nail the brakes and lock up the wheels. *With out downshifting and in
standard not auto shifting* Notice where you stopped.
Then reset your car to get new tires and fuel. Now Try the same thing
but this time try modulating the brakes. With 100% front brake it's hard
to not lock them up so you have to be very smooth and if you do it right
I'm sure you'll see a BIG difference in distance, it's good practice to
help make you more smooth too. :) *With out downshifting and in standard
not auto shifting*. The reason why you put the brake bias to 100%
forward is to make it fair. With brake bias around 52-57 your engine
braking can***up you bias if not set properly. It can reduce your
braking capabilities.
You can try this same test with you racing setup with brake bias in the
52-7 area. If your locking of the brakes is stopping you quicker with
your race setup then you're bias isn't set properly or your not at the
maximum braking power. Don't forget engine braking and downshifting can
really mess up your brake bias.

> > Surely if the brakes are locked and the wheels aren't spinning at all you
> > will get maximum deceleration.
> > The main reason to avoid locking brakes is that it can make you spin and
> you
> > lose the ability to control the cars direction.

> No no no Simon,
> If you lock the brakes while turning in you'll spin,
> If you lock the brakes while holding a straight line you'll be fine, which
> again is a flaw, even in a straight line, persistent locked brakes should
> eventually put you in circles.

> I find that if you brake hard the car goes out of control but if you stamp
> on the brakes before it ahs time the brakes lock straight on and you
> decelerate all the better.

> Locking the brakes even if you do manage to hold the car straight in real
> life greatly extends braking distance, even sims like MGPRS2 and F1 2000
> model this.

> I won't go into the physics of it all but when the wheel is rotating it
> means it is gripping the tarmac. when you slow the wheel rotation down by
> braking, as long as the wheel is still rotation it is gripping the tarmac
> and slowing the car down with it.
> If the brakes lock however, there is no rotation of the wheels. The means no
> grip and the wheels are just skidding over the ground. The ONLY force in
> this case that should make the car slow down is that fact that there is
> nothing driving the car forward as you are not accelerating, I essentially
> like coming off the throttle and letting the car slow that way.

> This really runs the game for me after learning this, it's not in the least
> bit realistic. Physically the cars in GPL lock there brakes but they seems
> to maintain the impact of:
> the Lower the pedal the quicker you stop which is incorrect when locking the
> brakes up.

by **m.seer** » Mon, 15 May 2000 04:00:00

Quite right.

You will get maximum braking when the wheels are partially locked. That is
to say, when they are revolving at a slower rate than roadspeed would
normally dictate, but not locked into a static, non revolving state.

MS.

> When tires are skidding you get nowhere near full braking
> force. It's an absolute myth that you get maximum braking by standing on
> the brakes and skidding along.

> Cheers,
> ...Colin

> > Surely if the brakes are locked and the wheels aren't spinning at all
you
> > will get maximum deceleration.
> > The main reason to avoid locking brakes is that it can make you spin and
> you
> > lose the ability to control the cars direction.

rec.autos.simulators

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups

GPL brake lock-ups