rec.autos.simulators

I've dabbled in auto sims for ages. However, I've been holding off for
quite a while as they don't seem to be moving forward. The most
disappointing aspect is the "force feedback" that is claimed to be
available. A couple of years ago I bought a Logitech force-feedback
wheel that was claimed to be really good, but it was clear that people
who claimed it was good had never driven a real-life car.

Problems with the logitech were that:
(i) The amount of resistance given by the wheel was the same
irrespective of the angle of the wheel (ie, you would get strong
resistance just moving the wheel a few degrees from center, but in a car
the wheel is very light as the center, and progressively loads up as you
corner harder).
(ii) The resistance was only to turning the wheel. Once the wheel was
turned, it would give no resistance to be held at that angle - unlike a
real car where the resistance is not to the turning of the wheel, but is
a force that tries to center the wheel if it is not at the center.

Are there any current force-feedback wheels that give a realistic
experience??

The iRacing sim looks interesting, but you would have to say it will be
an abject failure given that there is so much cynicism even from the
diehards in this newsgroup - who should be raving about it over everyone
else.

This group has been too busy with people abusing each other for many to
bother posting.

FWIW here is my review so far:

The sim:

Physics: I believe iRacing represents a significant step forward. My
personal view is that I havent had this feeling of sim racing moving a
leap forward since GPL. NKPro is probably the closest but iRacing is far
more polished and complete.

Graphics: This is a far more subtle improvement. There is no jaw
dropping like a GT5:P replay but it is highly detailed with excellent
colour and lighting that looks very natural. The improvement is most
noticeable going back to another sim which seems a bit rough in
comparison. Some will be disappointed that it doesnt represent a next
generation improvement though for those with mega computers that could
perhaps manage more.

Sound: The sound is great, having said that some of the add ons for GTR2
Power & Glory for instance are equally as good. The use of surround
sound for pinpointing where rival cars are is very useful

FFB: This can be very personal. For me Race07 represented the best FFB
and now iRacing raises the bar again. Be wary the Pontiac Solstice has
power steering correctly simulated. For judging the quality of the
feedback try the Legends car, better still for road racers buy the Skip
Barber, that has amazing FFB!

Netcode: Again it seems very good, I havent seen a single warping car
and contact (I admit I have had some!) behaves as it should. The servers
are based in the US and I am in the UK and the quality has been great. I
would say on a par with LFS and rFactor although I havent seen any
feedback on larger than 14 grids.

Cars & Tracks: All beautifully modelled, the level of detail, suspension
movement, track accuracy are all top rate. Although they are a little
too clean! I would love to see some dirt build up throughout a race.

Incidents, Licenses and iRatings:

The most discussed aspect of the beta, first time users are vary wary of
a system that records every incident including dropping wheels off the
track. The first races can be a little strange with drivers desperate
not to notch up an incident. Once it becomes apparent you are only
penalized by the system for being a genuinely bad driver, the confidence
increases and the racing really starts. Drivers are aware of the system
and if they are having a bad race rather than let it slip further they
tend to try to redeem themselves in the stewards eyes.

The whole system has taken years of testing to perfect and it works very
well in practice . It is easier to demonstrate by running a few races
than to explain on paper.

The more races you have so the iRating system developes and drivers of
similar performance grouped together. The racing seems to get better and
better as time progresses.

Races and Championships

iRacing is like a combination of league and pickup racing. There are
organized championships although drivers can race when they like as many
times as they like. For drivers used to structured leagues this can take
some getting used to. Although password controlled league races will be
supported in the future iRacing decides who you race with (although a
buddy system will try and put you with friends if licenses and iRatings
allow).

The convenience is fantastic and pickup racing has never been like this.
However, if a regular evening slot with a group of friends is an
overriding requirement iRacing in its current form will not deliver that
need.

The track for the weeks racing is predetermined by iRacing championship
for the series

Stats

Probably more than you will ever need and easy to use.

Content

Compared with a sim like Race07 or a moddable sim like rFactor the
content is light. What you get is of an extremely high quality. If part
of the enjoyment is trying out loads of cars on many tracks then prepare
to be disappointed, the priority is on providing quality racing at this
stage of development. Plus to get more content you will need to pay for it.

Features

The same applies to features. Things like changeable weather, drying
lines, marbles build ups, driver changes, time of day transitions dont
exist yet. Even pitstops and full course cautions in the initial build
are yet to be implemented. The initial product is centred around club
racing which dont need the latter features. They will come but early
adopters looking for a full blown replacement for a Nascar sim will not
find it here at launch, so be aware.

The Web Interface

Everything runs through a browser, it is all very intuitive and works
extremely well.

My Conclusion

It is the best sim by a significant margin for me. The service formats
all work well with the caveat you cannot run closed sessions for private
groups.

What people will need to decide is whether the content and feature lists
are an issue for them and therefore whether iRacing is a worthwhile
outlay at this version 1.0 stage. Needless to say all these features
will come, but only you can decide what you are looking for in sim
racing and what represents value.

For me the sim makes it, I don't want to race anything else.

Cheers
Tony

Yes.  It's come a long way.  For the price I don't think the Logitech
G25 can be beat.

You didn't say what sims you used when you originally tried FFB.  FF
effects vary greatly from sim to sim.  GPL was really good.  If you
were using a decent sim then it sounds like you didn't have your old
FFB wheel set up properly.  Even the first wheels available could give
a somewhat realistic feeling far beyond what you describe.

RealFeel and LeoFFB plugins for rFactor are good.  The FFB experience
in iRacing is even better.

Part of what makes iRacing FFB so good is simply the complexity of the
track surface.  There is a lot of texture to the track surface that is
relayed through the steering wheel.  When I went back to rFactor or
ARCA to compare, there really was no comparison.  The track surfaces
in those sims are mostly just perfectly smooth planes.  The FFB
experience while driving is comparitively unengaging as should be
expected.

--
Pat Dotson
UltraForce Simulations LLC
http://ultraforcesim.com

-Larry

...or***pit view, some of them.

<ducks>

--
Pat Dotson
UltraForce Simulations LLC
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

No forces to deal with - light loose steering - no kerb effects - near
instant opposite lock - etc

Yup - non-ffb is actually faster and should be considered a "view like"
cheat.
Not to say an "overwhelming" advantage, but certainly some advantage.

--=--

Yea.  IMO a non-FFB wheel is as much a driving aid as a non-cockpit
view.

<ducks>

--
Pat Dotson
UltraForce Simulations LLC
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

        Non-ffb isn't a cheat. Non-ffb is MORE real than ffb. Ffb is FAKE
(unlike***pit view).
        Somebody who is in simulation bussines excelently explained this in
r.a.s. (to me) some time ago. -- Mario Petrinovich

I think it depends how you learn sim racing. For those that learnt for
many years before FFB the seat of the pants feel is developed from what
we see and hear.

FFB provides that input to people who learn with it, they can sense what
the car is doing through the wheel.

For the non FFB learners the variable wheel movements just get in the
way and are a distraction.

For me the only ones that seem in tune with "feedback" I see and hear
are Race07 and iRacing. Reelfeel just never seemed to work for me almost
as if the steerin feel and visuals were out of synch in my head.

iRacing is the best combination of visual, sound and FFB feel for me
personally, they seem to complement each other perfectly, those bought
up on FFB wheels from birth may think differently.

I have run both FFB and non FFB with no change in lap times, it just
feels a lot more immersive with it on. For the fisrt time FFB doesn't
get in the way for me.

Cheers
Tony

So one person's view persuaded you and we should all agree?

        Yes, : ). Ffb has latency, which distructs "the reality" in sims.
        This discussion took place around the New Year 2003/4. The name of
discussion is "What would be better", and it started Dec.28.2003. 8:30pm (it
could be that this is european time). Excellent discussion.
 -- Mario Petrinovich

Joysticks in general have latency. So what do you suggest, the keyboard?
Anyway, technology has moved and you might want to too.

If you don't believe me, try this in any car - even one with power
steering.  While the car is at a stop turn the steering wheel to full
lock.  Now apply throttle so the car starts moving forward.  What does
the steering wheel do?

As for FFB, it can be good or bad, realistic or unrealisic.  It
depends on the application of the technology.  There can be no
argument that good FFB is more realistic than no FFB.

Sure they did.  Most likely someone from ECCI, TSW, or Hyperstim.
They have no axe to grind, do they?  :)

--
Pat Dotson

Of course that's just my opinion.  I wouldn't criticize someone using
a spring loaded wheel.  In a lot of ways I think FFB is an advantage
over non-FFB.  For flat-out hotlapping I think non-FFB is probably the
best way to go.  As for me, I have zero interest in driving without
FFB now.

--
Pat Dotson