rec.autos.simulators

>>>> No forces to deal with - light loose steering - no kerb effects - near
>>>> instant opposite lock - etc

>>>> Yup - non-ffb is actually faster and should be considered a "view like"
>>>> cheat.
>>>> Not to say an "overwhelming" advantage, but certainly some advantage.
>>>        Non-ffb isn't a cheat. Non-ffb is MORE real than ffb. Ffb is FAKE
>>> (unlike***pit view).
>>>        Somebody who is in simulation bussines excelently explained this
>>> in r.a.s. (to me) some time ago. -- Mario Petrinovich
>> So one person's view persuaded you and we should all agree?

>         Yes, : ). Ffb has latency, which distructs "the reality" in sims.
>         This discussion took place around the New Year 2003/4. The name of
> discussion is "What would be better", and it started Dec.28.2003. 8:30pm (it
> could be that this is european time). Excellent discussion.
>  -- Mario Petrinovich

> That article is circa 2003 -- I might point out  ;)

> Times change - have you noticed any improvements in computer hardware
> (cpu, mem, fsb, etc.) since 2003?  There have been improvements in
> performance and timing.    Software development has also improved a bit
> <wink>

> It may be time to revisit this issue.... afterall.... my racing wheel
> doesn't have bungie-cord in it anymore!

> 0-0-0-0-0
> -==-

>> Norman Ball:
>>>Mario Petrinovich:
>>>> Norman Ball:
>>>>>Mario Petrinovich:
>>>>>> <==-==>:
>>>>>>> Agree Pat

>>>>>>> No forces to deal with - light loose steering - no kerb effects -
>>>>>>> near
>>>>>>> instant opposite lock - etc

>>>>>>> Yup - non-ffb is actually faster and should be considered a "view
>>>>>>> like" cheat.
>>>>>>> Not to say an "overwhelming" advantage, but certainly some
>>>>>>> advantage.

>>>>>>        Non-ffb isn't a cheat. Non-ffb is MORE real than ffb. Ffb is
>>>>>> FAKE (unlike***pit view).
>>>>>>        Somebody who is in simulation bussines excelently explained
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> in r.a.s. (to me) some time ago. -- Mario Petrinovich

>>>>> So one person's view persuaded you and we should all agree?

>>>>        Yes, : ). Ffb has latency, which distructs "the reality" in
>>>> sims.
>>>>        This discussion took place around the New Year 2003/4. The name
>>>> of
>>>> discussion is "What would be better", and it started Dec.28.2003.
>>>> 8:30pm
>>>> (it could be that this is european time). Excellent discussion.

>>> Joysticks in general have latency. So what do you suggest, the keyboard?
>>> Anyway, technology has moved and you might want to too.

>>        Sorry Norman, I didn't have free time to answer. This is also
>> answer
>> to Pat and Ronald.
>>        First Norman, I was talking about FFB latency (so, it doesn't
>> matter
>> if it is a joystick or wheel ffb). Ffb latency is much greater than brain
>> latency, this is the problem, and non'ffb joystick or wheel latency is
>> lower
>> than brain latency.
>>        Now, the answer to you all, please take a look at this discussion:
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>>        Especially the posts by Tom Pabst. Tom isn't associated to
>> companies
>> mentioned by Pat. But he is heavily into simulation bussines by owning
>> the
>> company that runs realistic simulations at Infineon raceway (if I
>> understood
>> that correctly). Here is the link for it:
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>>        He is interested in reality in simulation (of course).
>>        Here it is the most interesting part of what Tom said about ffb:
>>        "G-Force is another issue that is mostly over-rated by non race
>> car
>> driving sim racers.  Yes, there is some "back of the seat" feel....that
>> is provided by g-force in a real race car that is missing in a sim.  But
>> it is not something that is tough for the brain to deal with when its
>> missing from the simulation experience.  What I mean is, it doesn't cause
>> our brains to "discount" the whole experience as unrealistic.  Here's why
>> (and this comes primarily from some research that NASA did early on in
>> training the astronauts in simulators):
>> Our brains are very good a creating a simulated environment for
>> us.....when
>> we do tasks in a simulator (fly, race, etc.).  Let's say there are 10
>> elements, or "inputs" of data.....that we receive when racing in a real
>> race
>> car.  10 categories of data/input to our brains, like:  Sight (visuals),
>> sound, smell, g-force, vibration, etc.  If you put the brain into a
>> simulated environment that does 5 to 7 of those really well (does them
>> well
>> enough to be believable by our brain as real), then the brain helps us
>> out
>> and starts filling in the missing items!  However, if we put our brain
>> into
>> a simulator environment that does 5 to 7 things really well, but it does
>> the
>> 8th thing really badly (like g-forces that are not timed properly to the
>> visual event...and I mean the timing has to be dead on perfect....not off
>> by
>> a milli-second because our brains can tell when it is), then the brain
>> will
>> actually discount and discard all the really good things and
>> say...."Nope,
>> this whole experience is not realistic!"
>> This is why we don't use force feedback controllers.  They are fun, but
>> the
>> timing is off....in even the best of them.  This "timing" is not a
>> function
>> of the FF controller, but more of the sim software that triggers the FF
>> events.  I would love to use it.....show me a sim program that does the
>> timing right....and we'll start using them.  In the meantime, we use
>> "sound
>> generated vibration" to accomplish something of the same thing."
>>        IOW, ffb is destructive to sense of reality, while spring loaded
>> wheel is less destructive. There is a reason why top companies associated
>> with car racing simulation doesn't use ffb, and the reason is the
>> destructivness this brings to reality.
>>        I didn't try the newest games, though (I just came back to
>> simulations to follow the iRacing progress, : )), but I doubt that
>> something
>> has changed in that thing. -- Mario Petrinovich

> But what's the difference between the software having to create a "sound
> generated vibration" and being used to create FFB?  Surely both are
> going to have some form of latency. And according to his argument,
> anything that is off, even by a millisecond, is going to upset our
> feeling of realism.

>> Things have moved on since 2003.

>> My Master also agrees.

> As the other guy was trying to explain, it is suggested that it is the
> latency that is the problem - not that grip level does not decrease as you
> reach the limit.

> It is a valid concern. In a car or a non-force feedback wheel, turning the
> wheel immediately results in resistance (due to either the tyre acting on
> the road, or stretching a bungie cord). On the other hand, in force
> feedback, the wheel is turned, the sensor in the wheel detects this, sends
> this message to the computer, the computer processes the information and
> determines what the correct load should be, sends the message back to the
> wheel, and then the motor in the wheel needs to generate that force. I'm
> not familiar with how the motors in the force feedback wheels work, but
> typically there is a lag from when current is applied in a motor to when
> it generates the appropriate level of force. Even if computers have
> improved in speed, this whole train of communication and potential lag in
> generating force still exists.

>>> No latency with the G25 in rFactor, from what I can tell. I can actually
>>> feel the grip level decreasing as I reach the limit. Turn the FFB off,
>>> and the whole experience feel dead to me.

>>> Things have moved on since 2003.

>>> My Master also agrees.

>> As the other guy was trying to explain, it is suggested that it is the
>> latency that is the problem - not that grip level does not decrease as
>> you reach the limit.

>> It is a valid concern. In a car or a non-force feedback wheel, turning
>> the wheel immediately results in resistance (due to either the tyre
>> acting on the road, or stretching a bungie cord). On the other hand, in
>> force feedback, the wheel is turned, the sensor in the wheel detects
>> this, sends this message to the computer, the computer processes the
>> information and determines what the correct load should be, sends the
>> message back to the wheel, and then the motor in the wheel needs to
>> generate that force. I'm not familiar with how the motors in the force
>> feedback wheels work, but typically there is a lag from when current is
>> applied in a motor to when it generates the appropriate level of force.
>> Even if computers have improved in speed, this whole train of
>> communication and potential lag in generating force still exists.

>    Well there is lag in the time it takes light to travel any distance -
> could you measure that time? Would you be sensitive in to the difference
> in time for light to travel 200m as opposed to 2000m.

>    10 x *** all = *** all!

>> My concern is that it seems as though those who advocate the use of force
>> feedback wheels do not know what the forces in a real race car feels
>> like - so they don't know what is good or bad, or how it should feel.
>> Further, given that they have often invested a lot of money in something
>> like a G25, they are unlikely to then say it is rubbish (well known
>> psychological phenomenon that when someone makes a major investment in
>> something, they are unable to critically evaluate it and rather delude
>> themselves into thinking how wonderful it is).

>> I'm not surprised by the claims that many serious racers do not use force
>> feedback as it is unrealistic. Does anyone who is a real racer think that
>> force feedback is worthwhile?

>    I can tell you that Greg Stewart used FF way back............remember
> him saying the main difference was he was more consistent with FF which
> makes perfect sense since you have extra "feedback" from the sim! I
> remember when I first got FF - it took a few weeks to get out of the old
> habbits - hated it at first. But after getting accustomed to it the feel
> of a sim without it is very dead and feels completely wrong. I too found I
> was more consistent with FF and perhaps a tad quicker - it just makes sims
> more of a proper sim ultimately. If anyone is concerned about any bad
> habbits that one may take from a sim into a ral race car then I can't see
> how it would be any worse than using a crude non FF wheel.