rec.autos.simulators

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

Karl Zose

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Karl Zose » Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:00:00

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

are they legal or not? I wouldn't know.

Jan Verschuere

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Legality is questionable... morality is downright rock bottom. They leaked
the pre-beta of Dave Noonan's Suzuka without even crediting him. Avoid.

Jan.
=---

David Noona

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by David Noona » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright.  The clue to the
breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

Basically, the guy running the site believes in the freedom to post whatever he wants
regardless of copyright.
I note, however, that he does not offer GPL presumably because in that case lawyers
would be paying him a visit.
Hence, the message sent out in the name of 'freedom'  is:- if you have lawyers I will
respect you but if you do not I will post whatever I want.

The only protection software authors have in the age of the internet is copyright
because our work does not have the physical existence of say a painting or a book and
can be copied all over the world in seconds.

If other sites copy the French Pits then slowly but surely add-ons developed in
spare-time will simply disappear.

BTW I would very much doubt that Sierra France have the power to give up Papyrus's
copyrights.

Regards

Dave Noonan


koko

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by koko » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the others si
ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you built suzuka
on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you can claim
any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s all

quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time mod'er c
ommunity is not on the way to extinction...



Dave Henri

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Dave Henri » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

  I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave Noonan's
copyright protection to that track.
So yeah,  Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan.  Anyone who doesn't like
this is free to write their own convertor.
  This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on the
coat-tails of others efforts.  And yesssss, in a sense you could argue that
Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended quite
a-bit of effort to produce his convertors.  what has the French site done?
Posted some leaked beta efforts?
dave henrie

> maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the others
si
> ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you built
suzuka
> on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you can
claim
> any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s all

> quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time mod'er
c
> ommunity is not on the way to extinction...


8ksvbs$l


Karl Zose

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Karl Zose » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I really stumbled into this French website by accident, and I was amased at
what tracks they had, and some I never heard of before.

Since I did not know your track convertor (I own Nascar 2 and Indycar 2, but
I don't like running GPL on ovals) I didn't really know what the other
tracks were. (I guess some are from newer Papyrus titles)

I'm really happy with the free tracks you already made available (I got them
at THE PITS) and regret if others steal your work. I hope that IF they
really love GPL, that they start using common sense!

Karl



> Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright.  The clue
to the
> breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

> Basically, the guy running the site believes in the freedom to post
whatever he wants
> regardless of copyright.
> I note, however, that he does not offer GPL presumably because in that
case lawyers
> would be paying him a visit.
> Hence, the message sent out in the name of 'freedom'  is:- if you have
lawyers I will
> respect you but if you do not I will post whatever I want.

> The only protection software authors have in the age of the internet is
copyright
> because our work does not have the physical existence of say a painting or
a book and
> can be copied all over the world in seconds.

> If other sites copy the French Pits then slowly but surely add-ons
developed in
> spare-time will simply disappear.

> BTW I would very much doubt that Sierra France have the power to give up
Papyrus's
> copyrights.

> Regards

> Dave Noonan



> > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/thefrenchpits/index2.html

> > are they legal or not? I wouldn't know.

Cliff Roma

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Cliff Roma » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I do not agree with that at all

That is like saying that if I take a Zip file and convert it to a ARJ file
with a converter, my ARJ file is under the copywrite of the converter

Or if I use Frontpage to make a webpage, my webpage now falls under
microsoft

Just does not work that way..


>   I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave Noonan's
> copyright protection to that track.
> So yeah,  Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
> it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan.  Anyone who doesn't like
> this is free to write their own convertor.
>   This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on the
> coat-tails of others efforts.  And yesssss, in a sense you could argue
that
> Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended quite
> a-bit of effort to produce his convertors.  what has the French site done?
> Posted some leaked beta efforts?
> dave henrie

> > maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the
others
> si
> > ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you built
> suzuka
> > on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you can
> claim
> > any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s all

> > quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time
mod'er
> c
> > ommunity is not on the way to extinction...


> 8ksvbs$l


daman28..

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by daman28.. » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

David..
Do you have a license to sell these converters?  If not what you are
doin is illegal my friend.  :)  Why do u sell them anyways?  Why not
have them available to download?



painting or a book and

- Show quoted text -

> can be copied all over the world in seconds.

> If other sites copy the French Pits then slowly but surely add-ons
developed in
> spare-time will simply disappear.

> BTW I would very much doubt that Sierra France have the power to give
up Papyrus's
> copyrights.

> Regards

> Dave Noonan



> > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/thefrenchpits/index2.html

> > are they legal or not? I wouldn't know.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dave Henri

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Dave Henri » Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:00:00

  not quite I think:
"IF" you had written the zip to arg convertor then the argument might be
similar.  (better be careful here:> with the reach of the net I "may" be
conversing with the pkzip orginator...)
  I am sure somewhere in Microsoft's EULA's they have a line that includes
their copywright in all you do.  I know many of the "free" websites have a
clause that makes EVERYTHING you place on their servers, their property.
  The convertor is NOT something that is readily available, it "requires" a
copy of the original copyrighted material(ie the ICR2 cd) to properly
operate.
   That being said,  Dave Noonan has only a couple of options:  a) Publize
the fact the tracks violate his copyright and "hope" users respect that.  b)
Ignore the whole thing and watch his reputation suffer as an obviously beta
effort delutes his past efforts.  c) Hire a lawyer.
  Since two of these are very very bad, I would "hope" the vast majority of
RAS users and web-surfers will respect what Noonan has done for the
sim-racing community and not visit the french site.  A last  alternative
would be to flood the ISP with complaints.(not a dns attack, just a large
group of users writting complaints.)
--
dave henrie
Free the ICR2 source code!
(hmm conflict in logic?)



> I do not agree with that at all

> That is like saying that if I take a Zip file and convert it to a ARJ file
> with a converter, my ARJ file is under the copywrite of the converter

> Or if I use Frontpage to make a webpage, my webpage now falls under
> microsoft

> Just does not work that way..



> >   I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave Noonan's
> > copyright protection to that track.
> > So yeah,  Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
> > it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan.  Anyone who doesn't like
> > this is free to write their own convertor.
> >   This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on
the
> > coat-tails of others efforts.  And yesssss, in a sense you could argue
> that
> > Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended quite
> > a-bit of effort to produce his convertors.  what has the French site
done?
> > Posted some leaked beta efforts?
> > dave henrie

> > > maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the
> others
> > si
> > > ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you built
> > suzuka
> > > on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you can
> > claim
> > > any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s all

> > > quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time
> mod'er
> > c
> > > ommunity is not on the way to extinction...


> > 8ksvbs$l


Tony

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Tony » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

If you look at the 3rd column on the circuits page you will see the credits
and a link to your site.


> Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright.  The clue
to the
> breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

> Basically, the guy running the site believes in the freedom to post
whatever he wants
> regardless of copyright.
> I note, however, that he does not offer GPL presumably because in that
case lawyers
> would be paying him a visit.
> Hence, the message sent out in the name of 'freedom'  is:- if you have
lawyers I will
> respect you but if you do not I will post whatever I want.

> The only protection software authors have in the age of the internet is
copyright
> because our work does not have the physical existence of say a painting or
a book and
> can be copied all over the world in seconds.

> If other sites copy the French Pits then slowly but surely add-ons
developed in
> spare-time will simply disappear.

> BTW I would very much doubt that Sierra France have the power to give up
Papyrus's
> copyrights.

> Regards

> Dave Noonan



> > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/thefrenchpits/index2.html

> > are they legal or not? I wouldn't know.

ymenar

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by ymenar » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright.  The clue
to the
> breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

Hmmm David.  Do you have any right actually to do Suzuka, or any of those
tracks you did (except Dubai since it's a fantasy track but could be said as
being a modified Red Rock, and thus the rights goes to Papyrus)?

Did you contact the owner of the track and ask them?  Basically if not, then
you can't copyright something that is illegal no?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Jan Verschuere

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Jan Verschuere » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Yo Frank,

We do want him to finish Suzuka, right? ;-)

Jan.
=---

??artij

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by ??artij » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Time to refresh lawschool for you, Ymenard!




> > Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright.  The
clue
> to the
> > breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

> Hmmm David.  Do you have any right actually to do Suzuka, or any of those
> tracks you did (except Dubai since it's a fantasy track but could be said
as
> being a modified Red Rock, and thus the rights goes to Papyrus)?

> Did you contact the owner of the track and ask them?  Basically if not,
then
> you can't copyright something that is illegal no?

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by ymenar » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00


It's not really an appropriate track for those vintage F1's.  Quite boring
to race imho.  Would be a better Icr2 track (especially considering it's
somehow based on Icr2 track editing, but that's another thing) ;)

Still, I'm awaiting his answer about Suzuka.  Does he has the rights to do a
modeling of the track?  What about Goodwood, Imola, Solitude, Snetterton and
Brands Hatch? Does GPLEA have got the rights to create them, some sort of
license?

I really do hope he has the rights to create Suzuka legally, or else his
arguments are irrelevant.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Matthew B.Knutse

Lots of new GPL tracks here...

by Matthew B.Knutse » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Fmenard said:

Woo, great speech.
1) GPLEA haven't made Brands.
2) Yes, we do have permissions, not licenses, but that's none of yer biz!

The only reason we like to keep the tracks at our site; 1) We like to see
how many people download the stuff we've spent thousands of hours on. 2) We
may very likely goof from time to time, and people will get updates, and the
right versions from us.

We make $ minus lots of money from this hobby. I just can't see why the
people at the French pits can't respect this. The only reason they have
given, is that we are ignorant bastards for not making the website in
french. Our reply was, we'd gladly post what's needed in all the languages
you would want, but we got _0_ replies to this even though it was posted in
ras, forum, and emails.

I have got mail from lots of people in France and Canada telling us they don
not support the activities of that site.

So all of my flatulence to the French pits, may they stink forever.

Matt/GPLEA


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