rec.autos.simulators

by **Kai Fulle** » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

actually Dave 99.9% of the add-ons out there are provided free, so I don't
see how this will make the add-ons go away? The only add-ons I know of that
are charged for is your converter, and Shaun Sullivan's FPS BBPRO and FBPRO
editors (which are now free.

GPLEA pots out tracks that they made from scratch (Box mix maybe) and give
them away for free, while your take outright papy tracks, making them work
with another game and charging for it.

While you definitely have the right (in my mind) to charge for it, I find
the out and out capitalism in this case to be morally questionable as well.
How many hours did you put in this converter? Now how many hours did all the
people who have made the editors that you use for free put in? I would think
that at the least you would provide your converter free to those people. I
guess I tend to believe that the sim community is better served by thinking
as a community, and not as individuals trying to make a buck. I feel the
same way about or world, in that if we were all a little less (looking for a
better work than selfish, since that a little to strong) we would all
benefit. We all know how add-ons help a genre, but what if everyone charged
for every add-on, it would really hurt the genre.

Ok, so don't get me wrong, I don't think that the French site should be
distributing your work for free if you don't want them too. It is your
choice whether you want to charge for it, (as long as it's legal) and fully
support the shutting down of the site.

> Suzuka, and the 'converted tracks' are breaches of my copyright. The clue
to the
> breach is that nobody is credited with suzuka or the converted tracks.

> Basically, the guy running the site believes in the freedom to post
whatever he wants
> regardless of copyright.
> I note, however, that he does not offer GPL presumably because in that
case lawyers
> would be paying him a visit.
> Hence, the message sent out in the name of 'freedom' is:- if you have
lawyers I will
> respect you but if you do not I will post whatever I want.

> The only protection software authors have in the age of the internet is
copyright
> because our work does not have the physical existence of say a painting or
a book and
> can be copied all over the world in seconds.

> If other sites copy the French Pits then slowly but surely add-ons
developed in
> spare-time will simply disappear.

> BTW I would very much doubt that Sierra France have the power to give up
Papyrus's
> copyrights.

> Regards

> Dave Noonan

> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> > are they legal or not? I wouldn't know.

by **Kai Fulle** » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Bill Gates has been in the software business, and understand all the rules
full and well... that doesn't mean that he doesn't have an anti-trust suit
against his company.

> > David..
> > Do you have a license to sell these converters? If not what you are
> > doin is illegal my friend. :) Why do u sell them anyways? Why not
> > have them available to download?

> Uhm, what makes you think he don't have Papy's permission to sell them,
> besides, David Noonan is a professional programmer who has been living
> in the copyright world for years now, doing work for himself and others,
> he knows his way when it comes to copyrights, so lets just drop the
> whole theme about DN's converters and legality, that's between him and
> Papy, and since Papy hasn't shut him down yet......

> As for your second point, by making a few dollars selling his
> converters, he can devote time to create new stuff from scratch, makes
> sense to me, charge for some stuff and let other stuff be available for
> DL

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
> "The Pits" http://www.thenorwaypits.com/

> * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
> "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

by **Goy Larse** » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> Bill Gates has been in the software business, and understand all the rules
> full and well... that doesn't mean that he doesn't have an anti-trust suit
> against his company.

Good point, but that's big business, and in big business you are cutting
corners and trying to cover your tracks afterwards, it's like a friend
of mine said, a shrewd business man is just a crook that noone has
caught yet :-)

They can hire lawyers to cover up for them or at least minimize the
damage and make it worth the risk, I don't see DN having that kind of
money, so he has to do his research before hand and make sure he don't
get sued, or if he does, that he will win

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.thenorwaypits.com
http://www.teammirage.com

"Mountain climbing, auto racing and bullfighting
are the only true sports...all others are games."
--Ernest Hemingway--

by **Thorsten Ruete** » Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Easily explained: Papy could not grant him the rights to
do the conversions because they don't hold the rights
themselves! One of the Papy guys told me so, when
I asked about the possibility of a professional converter.
As Dave's work doesn't hurt Papy (probably helps:) I guess they
don't act (my wild guess).
When Papyrus licenced the ICR2 tracks they obtained
the licence *only* for ICR2 and not to use the track in
any other sim.

If I recounted this wrongly, please correct me Papyrus.

So, hey, we *do* have copyrights embreachments by
Mr. Noonan here with regard to the track owners :)
But, who cares?

-Thorsten Rueter

> > David..
> > Do you have a license to sell these converters? If not what you are
> > doin is illegal my friend. :) Why do u sell them anyways? Why not
> > have them available to download?

> Uhm, what makes you think he don't have Papy's permission to sell them,
> besides, David Noonan is a professional programmer who has been living
> in the copyright world for years now, doing work for himself and others,
> he knows his way when it comes to copyrights, so lets just drop the
> whole theme about DN's converters and legality, that's between him and
> Papy, and since Papy hasn't shut him down yet......

> As for your second point, by making a few dollars selling his
> converters, he can devote time to create new stuff from scratch, makes
> sense to me, charge for some stuff and let other stuff be available for
> DL

> Beers and cheers
> (uncle) Goy

> "Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
> "The Pits" http://www.thenorwaypits.com/

> * Spam is for losers who can't get business any other way *
> "Spamkiller" http://www.spamkiller.com

by **Cliff Roma** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

That is totally false..

If I buy a VCR (Davids Converter) and I then use it to copy (convert) a
movie (a track), it does not give the company that made the VCR (David)
ownership of my new tape (track)

Dave sells the converter to perform a service.. converting the track.. After
it does that, it is out of davids hands.

> not quite I think:
> "IF" you had written the zip to arg convertor then the argument might be
> similar. (better be careful here:> with the reach of the net I "may" be
> conversing with the pkzip orginator...)
> I am sure somewhere in Microsoft's EULA's they have a line that includes
> their copywright in all you do. I know many of the "free" websites have a
> clause that makes EVERYTHING you place on their servers, their property.
> The convertor is NOT something that is readily available, it "requires"
a
> copy of the original copyrighted material(ie the ICR2 cd) to properly
> operate.
> That being said, Dave Noonan has only a couple of options: a) Publize
> the fact the tracks violate his copyright and "hope" users respect that.
b)
> Ignore the whole thing and watch his reputation suffer as an obviously
beta
> effort delutes his past efforts. c) Hire a lawyer.
> Since two of these are very very bad, I would "hope" the vast majority
of
> RAS users and web-surfers will respect what Noonan has done for the
> sim-racing community and not visit the french site. A last alternative
> would be to flood the ISP with complaints.(not a dns attack, just a large
> group of users writting complaints.)
> --
> dave henrie
> Free the ICR2 source code!
> (hmm conflict in logic?)

> > I do not agree with that at all

> > That is like saying that if I take a Zip file and convert it to a ARJ
file
> > with a converter, my ARJ file is under the copywrite of the converter

> > Or if I use Frontpage to make a webpage, my webpage now falls under
> > microsoft

> > Just does not work that way..

> > > I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave
Noonan's
> > > copyright protection to that track.
> > > So yeah, Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
> > > it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan. Anyone who doesn't
like
> > > this is free to write their own convertor.
> > > This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on
> the
> > > coat-tails of others efforts. And yesssss, in a sense you could argue
> > that
> > > Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended
quite
> > > a-bit of effort to produce his convertors. what has the French site
> done?
> > > Posted some leaked beta efforts?
> > > dave henrie

- Show quoted text -

> > > > maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the
> > others
> > > si
> > > > ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you
built
> > > suzuka
> > > > on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you
can
> > > claim
> > > > any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s
all

> > > > quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time
> > mod'er
> > > c
> > > > ommunity is not on the way to extinction...

> > > 8ksvbs$l

by **J. P. Hovercraf** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

No, it doesn't, but they -do- still own the rights to the movie you taped, and
you -don't- have the right to post the movie to a website for download just
because you used -your- tape and -your- VCR to record -their- movie.

J. P. Hovercraft

> That is totally false..

> If I buy a VCR (Davids Converter) and I then use it to copy (convert) a
> movie (a track), it does not give the company that made the VCR (David)
> ownership of my new tape (track)

> Dave sells the converter to perform a service.. converting the track.. After
> it does that, it is out of davids hands.

> > not quite I think:
> > "IF" you had written the zip to arg convertor then the argument might be
> > similar. (better be careful here:> with the reach of the net I "may" be
> > conversing with the pkzip orginator...)
> > I am sure somewhere in Microsoft's EULA's they have a line that includes
> > their copywright in all you do. I know many of the "free" websites have a
> > clause that makes EVERYTHING you place on their servers, their property.
> > The convertor is NOT something that is readily available, it "requires"
> a
> > copy of the original copyrighted material(ie the ICR2 cd) to properly
> > operate.
> > That being said, Dave Noonan has only a couple of options: a) Publize
> > the fact the tracks violate his copyright and "hope" users respect that.
> b)
> > Ignore the whole thing and watch his reputation suffer as an obviously
> beta
> > effort delutes his past efforts. c) Hire a lawyer.
> > Since two of these are very very bad, I would "hope" the vast majority
> of
> > RAS users and web-surfers will respect what Noonan has done for the
> > sim-racing community and not visit the french site. A last alternative
> > would be to flood the ISP with complaints.(not a dns attack, just a large
> > group of users writting complaints.)
> > --
> > dave henrie
> > Free the ICR2 source code!
> > (hmm conflict in logic?)

> > > I do not agree with that at all

> > > That is like saying that if I take a Zip file and convert it to a ARJ
> file
> > > with a converter, my ARJ file is under the copywrite of the converter

> > > Or if I use Frontpage to make a webpage, my webpage now falls under
> > > microsoft

> > > Just does not work that way..

> > > > I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave
> Noonan's
> > > > copyright protection to that track.
> > > > So yeah, Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
> > > > it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan. Anyone who doesn't
> like
> > > > this is free to write their own convertor.
> > > > This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on
> > the
> > > > coat-tails of others efforts. And yesssss, in a sense you could argue
> > > that
> > > > Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended
> quite
> > > > a-bit of effort to produce his convertors. what has the French site
> > done?
> > > > Posted some leaked beta efforts?
> > > > dave henrie

> > > > > maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the
> > > others
> > > > si
> > > > > ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you
> built
> > > > suzuka
> > > > > on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you
> can
> > > > claim
> > > > > any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s
> all

> > > > > quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time
> > > mod'er
> > > > c
> > > > > ommunity is not on the way to extinction...

> > > > 8ksvbs$l

by **Pierre Legra** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin...? Who gives a
shit...? David Noonan did us a favor and came up with a program that
converts tracks from ICR2/Nascar and such...he asks for a bit of money
to support further work and indeed to reward his past work. Cheap
bastards steal his work and post it...

I dont care to argue the legalities of it all but I do know this
unless the guys who stole it can program this stuff themselves if we
condone it we will soon not have the benefit of it since David wont be
doing it again.

Its called simple respect for another work...nothing legal, nothing
deep...simple respect. That French site is run by a bunch of shit bags
who dont respect others work.***on that....

PAPA DOC

by **Pierre Legra** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

You seem to be arguing simply to argue and to cover up for that french
sites head being up their disrespectful asses.

PAPA DOC

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Not that you'll really care but it's 41, to be exact.
I looked it up on the internet.
--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------

by **John Wallac** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

They are certainly not created with the DISapproval of the owners.
Whole maket segments survive this way - look at car modelling, with
some small manufacturers able to make tobacco logos or particular cars
without paying licensing money. The reason being that they are small
and providing a service, so this is overlooked.

If they were to ask it would be automatically refused since it would
be tacit acceptance for everyone to follow, but that doesn't make it
wrong.

No. The difference is that Pocono may or may not mind someone like
Dave doing it, but if Dave was to ask they would _have_ to say no.
Otherwise how can they ask Papyrus or EA for money for this likeness?

Only if he continues to do so after being asked to stop. I remember a
similar furore over a certain Indianapolis track for example.

Tracks like Rouen don't officially exist, nor do Reims, Solitude, Avus
etc etc etc. There's lots of scope for devloping famous tracks without
any infringement at all. Personally I feel the only concern should be
Papy's copyright. After all, what about all the games like NFS etc
which come ready-supplied with a track editor? Isn't that inciting
people to break the law? How can I make a copy of Brands Hatch in NFS
yet Dave, by your standard, can't make one for GPL? There's lots of
copies of lots of tracks on the 'net for download, why is GPL any
worse.

In any case, such arguments only push GPL further above the parapet to
be first in-line for a slapping, and I for one don't want to be
deprived of future tracks.

John

by **John Wallac** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Er, by your sentence above you automatically confer upon him the right
to question anything he wants. McFly?

"We"?

I have this vision of you standing on the grid at Suzuka asking
permission of "the track itself".... ;-)

Legally, none whatsoever.

Melbourne is available for download, not available in GP2 and part of
the current F1 season. So too the A1-Ring and Sepang.

Watch the news, it may happen very soon. It already is happening at
the Osterreichring (now called A1-Ring).

That sounds unlikely, or at least may explain why GPLEA have made
tracks which are far "lesser" than the Osterreichring etc. No major
track would ever be able to give such permission, which means you will
be stuck driving NASCARs around places like Knockhill forevermore. No
thanks, I'll take Fuji, Paul Ricard etc any day.

John

by **Andre Warrin** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:45:46 GMT, "J. P. Hovercraft"

>No, it doesn't, but they -do- still own the rights to the movie you taped, and
>you -don't- have the right to post the movie to a website for download just
>because you used -your- tape and -your- VCR to record -their- movie.

Yep, the copyright is still on the converted tracks.

Andre

>J. P. Hovercraft

>> That is totally false..

>> If I buy a VCR (Davids Converter) and I then use it to copy (convert) a
>> movie (a track), it does not give the company that made the VCR (David)
>> ownership of my new tape (track)

>> Dave sells the converter to perform a service.. converting the track.. After
>> it does that, it is out of davids hands.

>> > not quite I think:
>> > "IF" you had written the zip to arg convertor then the argument might be
>> > similar. (better be careful here:> with the reach of the net I "may" be
>> > conversing with the pkzip orginator...)
>> > I am sure somewhere in Microsoft's EULA's they have a line that includes
>> > their copywright in all you do. I know many of the "free" websites have a
>> > clause that makes EVERYTHING you place on their servers, their property.
>> > The convertor is NOT something that is readily available, it "requires"
>> a
>> > copy of the original copyrighted material(ie the ICR2 cd) to properly
>> > operate.
>> > That being said, Dave Noonan has only a couple of options: a) Publize
>> > the fact the tracks violate his copyright and "hope" users respect that.
>> b)
>> > Ignore the whole thing and watch his reputation suffer as an obviously
>> beta
>> > effort delutes his past efforts. c) Hire a lawyer.
>> > Since two of these are very very bad, I would "hope" the vast majority
>> of
>> > RAS users and web-surfers will respect what Noonan has done for the
>> > sim-racing community and not visit the french site. A last alternative
>> > would be to flood the ISP with complaints.(not a dns attack, just a large
>> > group of users writting complaints.)
>> > --
>> > dave henrie
>> > Free the ICR2 source code!
>> > (hmm conflict in logic?)

>> > > I do not agree with that at all

>> > > That is like saying that if I take a Zip file and convert it to a ARJ
>> file
>> > > with a converter, my ARJ file is under the copywrite of the converter

>> > > Or if I use Frontpage to make a webpage, my webpage now falls under
>> > > microsoft

>> > > Just does not work that way..

>> > > > I would think the moment you ran the convertor you added Dave
>> Noonan's
>> > > > copyright protection to that track.
>> > > > So yeah, Papyrus produced the original track, but anyone who converts
>> > > > it...does so with the permission of Mr. Noonan. Anyone who doesn't
>> like
>> > > > this is free to write their own convertor.
>> > > > This guy seems to me to be just a cheap flag waver who is riding on
>> > the
>> > > > coat-tails of others efforts. And yesssss, in a sense you could argue
>> > > that
>> > > > Dave Noonan is riding on Papyrus's coat-tails, but he has expended
>> quite
>> > > > a-bit of effort to produce his convertors. what has the French site
>> > done?
>> > > > Posted some leaked beta efforts?
>> > > > dave henrie

>> > > > > maybe code source still belongs to papy. but GPL (and icr2 and the
>> > > others
>> > > > si
>> > > > > ms involved there) business exploitation belongs to Sierra. you
>> built
>> > > > suzuka
>> > > > > on your own, ok it s your but I don t know who in the name of you
>> can
>> > > > claim
>> > > > > any copyright on the converted tracks. you built the conv, that s
>> all

>> > > > > quake or half life mods are spread all over the net, and spare time
>> > > mod'er
>> > > > c
>> > > > > ommunity is not on the way to extinction...

>> > > > 8ksvbs$l

by **ymenar** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

That's not a race track. Race tracks are owned by somebody, they are a
business entity. Let's say you want to model in a FPS Walt Disney World.
Do you REALLY think you don't need to ask? So what's the difference with
that and a race track? None.

GP2.

Sepang was not part of the season which GP2 models. Brands Hatch was part
of the Formula 1 season modeled in GPL (they raced a non-point race there).
End of this portion of discussion.

Still, the converters themselves are also in the illegality, and that I'm
100% sure. Do you really think all those track owners have granted
permission to use those 30 tracks in GPL? Of course not.

"If they cared" is the single most important thing of this whole thread.

If so, then explain the whole fuss with the Daytona track. There is a
potential profit loss that tracks lose by having them available illegally.
They could have had license money (although it's not directly related to the
game itself but the FIA in F1 sims).

True but his converter is a commercial product no? ;)

Even if it's free it doesn't mean it's legal.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **ymenar** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Hehe ;-)
"Hello track, can I model you?"

Somehow, your right. GPL doesn't have a Formula 1 license let's remember.
Technically, it's not forced to have tracks raced during the season which it
models.

But a FIA license gives the usage of only the tracks available in the season
that the software models. When getting basic game FIA license, you can't
simply say "ok so let's do the 1976, 88, 93, 99, 2000 seasons with all those
different cars from all era's". You are granted the right to model the
tracks, cars, drivers, etc.. of the season you have the license.

I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are saying. The A1-Ring is
having legal problems with the GPL version of the O-Ring? If so, then the
whole thing I want to say in this thread comes true. GPL is not immune to
legal problems because it's an historical sim and is quite small in
popularity.

Of course I want all those tracks. But let's keep an eye open to the legal
problems that could happen with them if we don't take precautions. It sucks
that we can't model those tracks freely. There should never be any kind of
profit for tracks, but that's the power they have. I could go into the
"Track charges money for getting publicity", but that's a whole different
thing ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **ymenar** » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Oh please Pierre. That would be like saying an American would be trying to
cover up for that UK site if it would had happened that way.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

rec.autos.simulators

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