rec.autos.simulators

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

Adam Zerli

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Adam Zerli » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

In the March issue of Maximum PC, page 39.  T. Liam McDonald flames PAPY for
making GPL too realistic of a sim.  Well excuse me, but isn't the idea of
making a racing simulation is to simulate real racing, and the true-life
physics??  He says and I quote:

"Grand Prix Legends is the lesser sinner because its failings are mostly of
omission.  Developed by Papyrus, the long-standing developer of
ultra-realistic racing sims, Grand Prix Legends is everything a true
*** racing fan should expect.  The physics are modeled in exacting and
impressive detail.  No one, not even an experienced racing simmer or
(especially) an actual race car driver, could drive this game right away.
It takes hours and hours of pratice to learn these complex models.  Racing
fans lap this up, nonfans admire the attention to detail.
But Papyrus didn't bother to put in any effective difficulty or realism
toggles to make this game approachable by the casual racing fan.  Real-world
physics in a game are admirable.  Mandatory real-world physics in a game are
stupid.
And Grand Prix Legends is 'overmodeled.' This comment prompts contemptuous
responses from fans demanding to know how physics can be 'overmodeled.'
Here's how:It's a game! It's a two-dimensional re-creation of an activity
that occurs in three dimensions.  In this game, you call upon precisley one
of your senses (sight) with a tiny bit of help from another (hearing).
In real driving, feel is essential.  The feel of the wheel in your hands and
pedals under your feet.  The feel of the road under your tires.  The feel of
the car at that precise moment when the wheels lose traction and being to
skid.  Driving, more than flying, is a matter of feel, and that sensation is
utterly closed off to you on the PC.  Ergo, you don't have the sensory
information needed to cope with this physics model.  Ergo, the game becomes
even more of a challenge than driving real cars.  Match that with Papyrus's
laughable refusal to even attempt force feedback support (they say no force
feedback device can accuratley re-create the feel of driving these cars) and
you have a sim that's a realistic model of an activity, but not a realistic
re-creation of an activity."

Ok now, this is ridiculous.  Let's start at the beginning.  First, who could
drive this game right away?  Who would want to?  If anyone could just drive
this game right away like it was second nature would become discusted
because it would be too easy and have no competition.  Second, why would you
want toggles to make the game easier?  For one thing, there is something
like that but not in a race mode, it's called the trainer cars.  Also,
there's braking, and shifting help.  Third, a simulation is a re-creation of
a real-life occurance, in this case, '67 F1 GP racing.  It was meant to be
very real and it is!  Nothing can be "overmodeled", but it can be
"undermodeled".  And last but not least, force feedback is in its infancy,
the only thing it can do right now for racing sims is vibrate and tighten.
Now, that may seem enough but it isnt.  It will only vibrate slighty, and
not ***ly, which some people might not approve of, but PAPY was right
when not putting FFB in GPL, it would probably mostly be turned off by most
people anyhow, because it wouldn't have the same level of "greatness" as the
rest of GPL has.

What it seems we have here is someone who couldn't do good in GPL, got mad,
and complained about racing _sims_ being _too realistic_ for him.  So he
flamed PAPY and their newest and greatest game so far, GPL.  Just an
afterthought. :-)

For anyone who would like to talk to this guy, can e-mail him at:

Adam Zerlin

Wosc

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Wosc » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Damn this guy is a total well I dont want to say it on a news group.  What
does this guy want? an option to change from realistic physics to pole
position physics cause he sucks so bad that he needs something easy to
drive?  Its a sim for crying out loud, he wants sim makers to make their
games more arcade and unrealistic so people that are not capable of trying
can have something to do.  If he wanted to play something simple, he coulda
gone out and gotten nascar revolution and praised it for its lack of
realism.  He shouldnt have bought a simulation that boasts that it is the
most accurate physics out and hope it would be easy.  Though he is also
saying it ISNT realistic enough cause it doesnt have any feel to it.
Putting FF into GPL, knowing papy and how great they are with sims, they
would have had to hold back the release for another 2 years to make it
perfect (which if it were done, it better be) so he shouldnt be complaining
cause im sure if PAPY had rushed FF for it, the man would be complaining
that the FF isnt realistic enough.  I think everyone should write this man a
"kind" email explaining how you feel on his views.
Jesse

PS I wouldnt have minded if he would have written to a news group saying
this was how he feels but writing it in a magazine no longer says THIS IS MY
VIEW, its sayig how everyone feels about it cause thats what magazines
normally do, they rate games fairly, obviously this guy didnt.


>In the March issue of Maximum PC, page 39.  T. Liam McDonald flames PAPY
for
>making GPL too realistic of a sim.  Well excuse me, but isn't the idea of
>making a racing simulation is to simulate real racing, and the true-life
>physics??  He says and I quote:

>"Grand Prix Legends is the lesser sinner because its failings are mostly of
>omission.  Developed by Papyrus, the long-standing developer of
>ultra-realistic racing sims, Grand Prix Legends is everything a true
>*** racing fan should expect.  The physics are modeled in exacting and
>impressive detail.  No one, not even an experienced racing simmer or
>(especially) an actual race car driver, could drive this game right away.
>It takes hours and hours of pratice to learn these complex models.  Racing
>fans lap this up, nonfans admire the attention to detail.
>But Papyrus didn't bother to put in any effective difficulty or realism
>toggles to make this game approachable by the casual racing fan.
Real-world
>physics in a game are admirable.  Mandatory real-world physics in a game
are
>stupid.
>And Grand Prix Legends is 'overmodeled.' This comment prompts contemptuous
>responses from fans demanding to know how physics can be 'overmodeled.'
>Here's how:It's a game! It's a two-dimensional re-creation of an activity
>that occurs in three dimensions.  In this game, you call upon precisley one
>of your senses (sight) with a tiny bit of help from another (hearing).
>In real driving, feel is essential.  The feel of the wheel in your hands
and
>pedals under your feet.  The feel of the road under your tires.  The feel
of
>the car at that precise moment when the wheels lose traction and being to
>skid.  Driving, more than flying, is a matter of feel, and that sensation
is
>utterly closed off to you on the PC.  Ergo, you don't have the sensory
>information needed to cope with this physics model.  Ergo, the game becomes
>even more of a challenge than driving real cars.  Match that with Papyrus's
>laughable refusal to even attempt force feedback support (they say no force
>feedback device can accuratley re-create the feel of driving these cars)
and
>you have a sim that's a realistic model of an activity, but not a realistic
>re-creation of an activity."

>Ok now, this is ridiculous.  Let's start at the beginning.  First, who
could
>drive this game right away?  Who would want to?  If anyone could just drive
>this game right away like it was second nature would become discusted
>because it would be too easy and have no competition.  Second, why would
you
>want toggles to make the game easier?  For one thing, there is something
>like that but not in a race mode, it's called the trainer cars.  Also,
>there's braking, and shifting help.  Third, a simulation is a re-creation
of
>a real-life occurance, in this case, '67 F1 GP racing.  It was meant to be
>very real and it is!  Nothing can be "overmodeled", but it can be
>"undermodeled".  And last but not least, force feedback is in its infancy,
>the only thing it can do right now for racing sims is vibrate and tighten.
>Now, that may seem enough but it isnt.  It will only vibrate slighty, and
>not ***ly, which some people might not approve of, but PAPY was right
>when not putting FFB in GPL, it would probably mostly be turned off by most
>people anyhow, because it wouldn't have the same level of "greatness" as
the
>rest of GPL has.

>What it seems we have here is someone who couldn't do good in GPL, got mad,
>and complained about racing _sims_ being _too realistic_ for him.  So he
>flamed PAPY and their newest and greatest game so far, GPL.  Just an
>afterthought. :-)

>For anyone who would like to talk to this guy, can e-mail him at:

>Adam Zerlin

Charli

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Charli » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

It doesn't seem unfair for a mainstream magazine to rate it the way most
mainstream gamers (and that is the majority of their audience) would see it.

I think most of us GPL ***s are hard-core simmers, and proud of the
distinction.  If Papy wanted to make a game that would sell to gamers, they
failed, but we all know that we are the targets of this product.

I think a lot of people pick up GPL based on experience with previous Papy
sims and are very dissapointed.  I remember how frustrating it was not to be
able to keep up with the pack even up to turn 2 at the Glen!  I worked at it
a lot, but the real breakthrough for me was finding some setups and holtlap
replays on the web.  Most people won't go to that trouble or don't even
realize that the resources are out there.  I am married with 3 kids, and if
I hadn't found those hints to get my speeds up to where I could compete with
the AI, I would not enjoy GPL as much as I do (I don't think I would have
given up, I am too stubborn to admit defeat!).  My pc time is too limited by
other responsibilities, I am very grateful that I was able to learn from the
experience of others, but I wouldn't have gone to the trouble if I weren't a
hard-core race fan and sim fan.

Charlie

John Tomlinso

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by John Tomlinso » Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:00:00

OK once a month at least one of you guys gets pissed off because some
maintstream guy makes an ill will comment about your god racing sim.......I
love the game, I love racing sims.....but this was the MOST COMPLEX,
difficult, frustrating title I have ever loaded on my HD. I totally love it,
but yet there are tons of people who dont even like N2 and think it is too
complex and just "not fun"..........does that take away from my own
enjoyment I get from both Nascar1,2 and 99 series and GPL from Papy? NO!!!!
It affects me about as much as I affect flight sim junkies when I say they
are too realisitc and I dont have the time to learn all the buttons, the
correct placement of the...........whatever......my point is, there are a S
load more of "them" (non racing sim junkies) than there are of us.......so a
mainstream *** mag reveiw should not ruin your year.
Personally, I got tired of all the reveiw bashing back in november and
December......now another reveiw is just another review....I allready have
and love the sim, so what do I care about his OPINION of the game, I have
made my own. I would rather him be honest about the fact that it is a
*** SIM, and save all of us the time of reading post from some pissed
off *** saying GPL SUCKS and NeEd 4 sPeeD RulZe.
Most of us know we love it, for our own little special reasons......let Tim
stick with is first person shooters and what ever, and we will keep racing
and chasing that illusterous lap time.
JT
Jerry

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Jerry » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

This isn't a mainstream game, NFS III or Moster Trcuk madness maybe, and to top
it off  MaximumPC is supposed to be geared toward the PC savy,  I'm a subscribe
but I don't read the game reviews.  Grand Prix 2 got the same kind of reaction.
 At the time, Grand Prix 2 was the top Formula Sim.  Grand Prix Legends is to
sims as Unreal is to graphics.  I just won at Silverstone on VROC in a 12 lap
race starting from 4th position.  I crossed the line .48 seconds ahead of
second.  I felt like I just won a real Formula 1 race.  I was exhausted and had
to take a 30 minute break afterwards.  I remember when I first downloaded the
demo and couldn't make one complete lap around Watkins Glen.  Could anybody
imagine driving a real race car and after the second lap being within a couple
of second of a real driver.  I don't even bother to read game reviews anymore
especially after you read a review of your favorite game and the guy or gal
blasts it for not having a feature that is only two menus deep.  These people
spend 30 minutes on a game and think they are knowledgeable enough to write a
review.  

I bow to the Papyrus programers.

Jerry

Grit

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Grit » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

     What the?   GPL has the greatest "feel" of any simulation to date.
You can "feel" your tires breakin' loose for an eternity (in racin' terms)!
You can "feel" the car so well, you can powerslide through coners!
You can "feel" the tinies bit of wheel spin while powerin' out of a coner!
And on, and on, and on.
     BTW, all you "sim-haters" out there, please don't pick this apart
with some inane somantical argument.   You know what I'm tryin' to say.

     Slamming the greatest racing simulator of all time for ANY reason
is whats truly stupid (not just a nit-pick, a SLAM.   A small problem here
and there's fine).

S.C. "Gritz" Petty
Spectre Racing
http://members.xoom.com/Gritz/Spectre/spectreracing.htm

=REZ

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by =REZ » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

You know Liam, some of us have gotten more exhillaration from GPL than we
ever thought possible from a computer game. It's a ***y marvel.. Racing
sim developers everywhere are wetting their shorts about how (more like
if..) they are every going to top GPL in their lifetime, so it really galls
me to hear you pontificate that Grand Prix Legends is somehow defficient
because force feedback was not included. In it's current state, FF is no
more than a pitiful distracting gimmick. Someday, when the technology
improves to achieve the speed and subtlety required to correctly model real
world road feel, FF should be included. Papy was right to leave GPL's
brilliant driving model unencumbered by today's so far, so lame FF
technology.

We should celibrate GPL, this milestone in motor racing simulation
technology.. Yes!

Best regd's,
=rez=

~^~^~ Alan Alvarez - PC ToYBOX Ltd. ~~^~^~~^~^^~
~^~~^ Digital Audio Production and Consulting ^~~^

((((< ..>))))
.......( o)
..........'......Woofer!

Wosc

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Wosc » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Well just a comment, a lot of people that dont have the internet or dont
check it just goof around in the game and are glad they can turn a 40 at
monza cause thats what they know is as fast as it will go.  if you never
know what the potential is of a car then you will not try to get there.

Wosco

PS i see what you mean though


>>VIEW, its sayig how everyone feels about it cause thats what magazines
>>normally do, they rate games fairly, obviously this guy didnt.

>It doesn't seem unfair for a mainstream magazine to rate it the way most
>mainstream gamers (and that is the majority of their audience) would see
it.

>I think most of us GPL ***s are hard-core simmers, and proud of the
>distinction.  If Papy wanted to make a game that would sell to gamers, they
>failed, but we all know that we are the targets of this product.

>I think a lot of people pick up GPL based on experience with previous Papy
>sims and are very dissapointed.  I remember how frustrating it was not to
be
>able to keep up with the pack even up to turn 2 at the Glen!  I worked at
it
>a lot, but the real breakthrough for me was finding some setups and holtlap
>replays on the web.  Most people won't go to that trouble or don't even
>realize that the resources are out there.  I am married with 3 kids, and if
>I hadn't found those hints to get my speeds up to where I could compete
with
>the AI, I would not enjoy GPL as much as I do (I don't think I would have
>given up, I am too stubborn to admit defeat!).  My pc time is too limited
by
>other responsibilities, I am very grateful that I was able to learn from
the
>experience of others, but I wouldn't have gone to the trouble if I weren't
a
>hard-core race fan and sim fan.

>Charlie

Juha Kallioin

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Juha Kallioin » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00



>OK once a month at least one of you guys gets pissed off because some
>maintstream guy makes an ill will comment about your god racing sim.......I
>love the game, I love racing sims.....but this was the MOST COMPLEX,
>difficult, frustrating title I have ever loaded on my HD. I totally love it,
>but yet there are tons of people who dont even like N2 and think it is too
>complex and just "not fun"..........does that take away from my own
>enjoyment I get from both Nascar1,2 and 99 series and GPL from Papy? NO!!!!

[snip]

You are right there. It doesn't take away my own enjoyment, but it
makes me think a lot if anyone is going to have the guts to publish
such a masterpiece that GPL is again.

I don't know how much GPL has sold worldwide.. I have no idea, but
I think that favorable reviews would increase the sales. Us realism
fanatics (or fanciers) will of course buy (and already have bought) it
without any hesitation, but as you said, there are a lot less of us
than the arcade crowd.

I for one would like to see more titles with more accurate physics
model and exciting cars come out. If not from Papy, then from anyone
else.

GPL has set the standard and I'm afraid no other sim/game today can do
what GPL does to me. Unfortunately none of the new announced sims seem
to reach that standard (based on previews etc). But I surely hope
something will come and surpass GPL. The sooner the better :-)

 -Juha

--

Ronald Stoeh

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Ronald Stoeh » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00


> On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:49:46 -0500,


> >Force feedback is in its infancy,
> >the only thing it can do right now for racing sims is vibrate and tighten.
> >Now, that may seem enough but it isnt.  It will only vibrate slighty, and
> >not ***ly, which some people might not approve of, but PAPY was right
> >when not putting FFB in GPL,

> I guess you haven't used FF in Viper Racing.

> I agree with your opinion about FF implementation in other games/sims,
> but I can *no longer* buy the argument that FF is not a usuable feature,
> if it is implemented properly.

> GPL would be MUCH improved with FF as was done in Viper Racing.

Yes, every time I switch from VR to GPL, I have to get used to the
"dead" wheel again. To "feel" the car fight you through the wheel,
instead of just seeing or hearing it fight, is simply amazing AND
helpfull.

l8er
ronny

--
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the change
to take effect. Reboot now?
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

John Simmo

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by John Simmo » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00


says...

Exactly.  Most "gamers" are exactly that - gamers.  They aren't concerned
with the accuracy of the car models, or the period accuracy of the track-
side graphics, or the intensity of the physics model.  The typical gamer
wants to kill or mame, or generally break the law in a virtual world.  To
that group, companies have provided test-drive 5, Need For Speed, Grand
Theft Auto, Pod, and games of that ilk.

I picked it up based on my experience with past Papy sims (Nascar),
expecting iot to be many times better.  I was not disappointed.  I picked
it up knowing NOTHING about driving open-wheel cars, knowing that the
learning curve would be steeper for me than for those used to ICR2 and
GP2.  In other words, I went in pretty much expecting the sim to be
tougher to drive than what I was used to, and I wasn't disappointed in
the least.  

You people have to realize something - the people that do reviews don't
get weeks and weeks to play with a game and learn it's nuances.  They're
on a deadline.  What would probably be a more fair way to review a game
would be to have a "typical gamer" review it, and at the same time, allow
a "hard-core-simmer" do a review, and present both reviews in the same
magazine.

--
=========================================================
John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

IGPS Director
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's
shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Pat Dotso

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Pat Dotso » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00


> And last but not least, force feedback is in its infancy,

A couple of years ago, 3D video acceleration was
in it's infancy.  It couldn't do anything nearly
as realistic as what can be done now.  Does that
mean it wasn't worth supporting then?

What wheels/sims have you even tried?  It doesn't
sound like you have enough hands-on experience
to pass judgement the way you have.

This further sounds like you don't have enough
experience with FF wheels to make such sweeping
statements.  My ACT Labs wheel will shake my
entire computer cabinet, to the point where
thing will fall off the top of it.

So what if people turn it off?  If you don't want
it, don't use it.  Papy IS NOT right in blowing
off FF support.  They should provide the best FF
support currently possible (which is pretty good).
They could be big part of speeding the progress
of FF technology. Instead, they are taking the
same attitude that they did with 3D acceleration.
They've been slow to move there as well.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Pat Dotso

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by Pat Dotso » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00


> me to hear you pontificate that Grand Prix Legends is somehow defficient
> because force feedback was not included

I would by no means call GPL deficient without FF,
but it would be nice to have.

I, for one, want that time to get here as soon
as possible.  Don't you think that it will happen
sooner with more support for currently available
hardware?  What would be the point of manufacturing
a high fidelity FF wheel when there aren't any
high fidelity FF sims?  Papy COULD do it better
than anyone else, but they choose not to.

By this philosophy, Papy should have skipped
INDY500/ICR1/N1/ICR2/N2/N99, and waited until
GPL was ready before ever releasing a simulation.
After all, those were all terribly simplified
models, weren't they?  Hardly even worth ever using...

Yes.  But include FF.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

schwab

MaximumPC flames PAPY and GPL

by schwab » Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Not to muddy the waters, but I am building a homemade wheel/pedals. So
FF support should be there, but should be able to be "turned off."

But I do have a hard time believing good FF is that tough... I remember
a thread a long time ago about Atari's Race Drivin' full-size arcade
video game.

The physics were pretty damn good and the FF was good too, with changes
taking place when the rear end got light and so on. It was pretty good.
And that game is like 6 or 7 years old! Doing it on a PC should be
easier these days... and I'm sure it will.

I'm just too dang cheap to shell out the $$ for a good FF! :-)

-_Dave



> > me to hear you pontificate that Grand Prix Legends is somehow defficient
> > because force feedback was not included

> I would by no means call GPL deficient without FF,
> but it would be nice to have.

> > In it's current state, FF is no
> > more than a pitiful distracting gimmick. Someday, when the technology
> > improves to achieve the speed and subtlety required to correctly model real
> > world road feel, FF should be included

> I, for one, want that time to get here as soon
> as possible.  Don't you think that it will happen
> sooner with more support for currently available
> hardware?  What would be the point of manufacturing
> a high fidelity FF wheel when there aren't any
> high fidelity FF sims?  Papy COULD do it better
> than anyone else, but they choose not to.

> > Papy was right to leave GPL's
> > brilliant driving model unencumbered by today's so far, so lame FF
> > technology.

> By this philosophy, Papy should have skipped
> INDY500/ICR1/N1/ICR2/N2/N99, and waited until
> GPL was ready before ever releasing a simulation.
> After all, those were all terribly simplified
> models, weren't they?  Hardly even worth ever using...

> > We should celibrate GPL, this milestone in motor racing simulation
> > technology.. Yes!

> Yes.  But include FF.

> --
> Pat Dotson
> IMPACT Motorsports
> http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

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