rec.autos.simulators

by **John Bod** » Fri, 28 May 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 26 May 1999 20:13:28 -0700, "ddjhenrie"

>->> The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event.

>>Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event.
>>Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8
>>qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine
>>that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel,
>>you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from
>>the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's
>>the same as it's always been.

> Well just for grins...who are the owners of the cars
>Stewart and Gordon are running?

Stewart co-owns his own team with Larry Curry. They ran 1 car at WDW
in January; they're running a 2nd car at Indy with Dr. Jack as the
driver (talk about irony). Gordon's co-owner is John Menard in BOTH
the IRL and CART.

by **Chris** » Fri, 28 May 1999 04:00:00

Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That
alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot of
drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally different
package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'. Not to mention it would mean
running in a rival league's event. How many teams of Nascar/CART/IRL/F1/et
al do you see competing with the exact same driver in multiple leagues? Not
many...would have been better if George had kept the same formula as before
where CART/Indycars happened to run at the brickyard but it wasn't part of
their actual series. Now its an IRL race, not a USAC (or other neutral
body) sanctioned EVENT.
Wasn't there also a rule that you had to run in so many IRL events in order
to qualify for the 500 or did that get ditched with the 25/8 rule?

'Sides, Robby Gordon isn't much of a driver anyways. :?

by **Diamondcutt** » Fri, 28 May 1999 04:00:00

On Thu, 27 May 1999 07:10:52 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter"

>Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That
>alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot of
>drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally different
>package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'.

No reason a CART driver couldn't try to find a ride the same way most
everybody else does at Indy . . . cruising Gasoline Alley and shake
hands with all the owners

It's unfortunate that so many people consider CART and IRL "rivals."
They are the two major open-wheel racing formulas based in the US.
They were at one time but don't seem to be competing for TV, for
sponsorships or for fans to fill the stands right now.

Home Depot is sponsoring Tony Stewart in both Winston Cup and IRL
(which pissed John Menard off ROYALLY), but not with the same team,
just the same sponsor.

Frankly, I would love to see Jeff "paint boy" Gordon on the grid in
the 500. He knows the track, but is he the versatile driver that
Andretti, Gurney, Allison and Stewart are?

Here's an idea . . . dump the IROC in favor of putting all those guys
in IRL cars on Memorial Day. Gordon, Earnhardt, Montoya . . .Why not?

If that were the case, there would only be about 20 drivers in the
race Sunday
AMEN!!

-the Diamondcutter

99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport
98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart
96 Invader/Briggs racing kart

by **ddjhenri** » Fri, 28 May 1999 04:00:00

>On Thu, 27 May 1999 07:10:52 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter"

>>Sure it is...problem is that it should never have had the 25/8 rule. That
>>alienated a lot of fans, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of teams and a lot
of
>>drivers. And for the CART boys, it means coming in with a totally
different
>>package thats actually a 'down-to-IRL-spec'.

>No reason a CART driver couldn't try to find a ride the same way most
>everybody else does at Indy . . . cruising Gasoline Alley and shake
>hands with all the owners

I agree we should NEVER have seen the 25/8 rule. But to the 2nd point.
Say I'm Roger Penske and I'm paying Al Jr. a whole lot of millions of
dollars
to race my car. Do you think I will be pleased if Al goes to Indy and
breaks a
leg? Do you think I will be happy that I'm paying a guy to devote his
driving
to a series I've entered a car in, only to see him driving for some other
guy?
Do you think Pepsi would be pleased if Jeff Gordon jumped out of his
Dupont car and called for a Coke? I can see the possibility of driving
both
series, but If MY MONEY is on the line, the jockey's priority and 100%
attention had better be on my car...
dave henrie
--
On May 17, 1999 A Whale was killed off the coast of
Washington State. The Whale was killed in the name of
Tradition.....I say....
%&#& Tradition!

by **Chuck Kandle** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

> In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung"
> race (NOT a series).......
> (BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney
> and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could
> get a ride? If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real
> drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s)

Indy's "long rich history", as your list of Andretti, Gurney, & Stewart so aptly
show, is one that the 33 fastest machines to show up made the field. Now, lets
take everybody together, IRL & CART, and the fastest 33 make the field. The rest
go home or watch from the sidelines. Problem is, these are not the fastest 33
out there, and we all know it! God bless the IRL, don't get me wrong. All
racing divisions have their place. Just that when it comes to Indy, it don't
belong there. It hasn't earned it in the speed department. And thats what
racing is all about, my friend, *speed*. Especially Indy.

--

Chuck Kandler #70
K&S Racing
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195
Unarmed and unafraid!

by **Chuck Kandle** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event.
> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8
> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine
> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel,
> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from
> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's
> the same as it's always been.

We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their
CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word. Mr. George has used a
monopoly power of sorts to dictate his series is the one that runs in the event,
wrestling it away from the machines that ran it for years. Had this been in the
interest of more speed, so be it because thats racing. But no, it went the other
way. But don't be fooled, this thing is not *open*.

--

Chuck Kandler #70
K&S Racing
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195
Unarmed & unafraid!

by **David Brow** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event.
>> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8
>> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine
>> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel,
>> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from
>> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's
>> the same as it's always been.

>We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their
>CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word.

Hasn't been for a long time. I, for one, would like Colin Chapman to
return from the dead bringing some 4WD turbines, but they won't allow
that either. I bet a Ferrari 333SP would be competitive too, but
that isn't to spec.

CART cars are a strawman argument.

What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points
paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete
straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and
qualify.

"We'll kick yer butts!"

"Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?"

-dB

by **John Bod** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event.
>> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8
>> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine
>> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel,
>> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from
>> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's
>> the same as it's always been.

>We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their
>CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word. Mr. George has used a
>monopoly power of sorts to dictate his series is the one that runs in the event,
>wrestling it away from the machines that ran it for years. Had this been in the
>interest of more speed, so be it because thats racing. But no, it went the other
>way. But don't be fooled, this thing is not *open*.

So CART's a closed series, too, huh? It must be, because I don't
think an IRL team could show up and qualify their IRL machines. Ditto
an F1 team.

Geez . . .

- Show quoted text -

by **John Bod** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>>> Geez -- here we go again. The Indianapolis 500 IS an open event.
>>> Just ask Tony Stewart or Robby Gordon. There is no more 25/8
>>> qualifying rule -- if you put in an entry, bring a car and engine
>>> that's up-to-spec, and have a properly licensed driver at the wheel,
>>> you can try to qualify for the Indy 500, same as always. Aside from
>>> the brief period of time with the 25/8 rule the first two years, it's
>>> the same as it's always been.

>>We'll agree on this as soon as the CART boys can show up for qualifying in their
>>CART machines. Its *not* open in any sense of the word.

>Hasn't been for a long time. I, for one, would like Colin Chapman to
>return from the dead bringing some 4WD turbines, but they won't allow
>that either. I bet a Ferrari 333SP would be competitive too, but
>that isn't to spec.

>CART cars are a strawman argument.

>What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points
>paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete
>straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and
>qualify.

>"We'll kick yer butts!"

With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is
the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G>

Good post, though.

- Show quoted text -

by **David Brow** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>>What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points
>>paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete
>>straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and
>>qualify.

>>"We'll kick yer butts!"
>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is
>the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G>

>>"Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?"

I am quite sure the F1 guys could figure out how to change their
gear ratios and lower downforce to get the terminal speed up. The
HP difference isn't as great as is used to be, and the F1 cars
are carrying less frontal area. Whether they'd still be running
after the 1/2 way point is a different question...

-dB

by **David Kar** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is
the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G>
--------------

This makes no sense to me (and of course, it may well be simply a joke), so
I ask: Is this a prediction from Ron Dennis, et al., or yourself?

--david

by **John Bod** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>>>What everyone *really* wants to see is the Indy 500 back as a points
>>>paying F1 championship event, where F1 cars are allowed to compete
>>>straight up even, and the schedule allows the F1 guys to test and
>>>qualify.

>>>"We'll kick yer butts!"
>>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is
>>the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G>

>>>"Charming. That means we'll be in front of you, I suppose?"

>I am quite sure the F1 guys could figure out how to change their
>gear ratios and lower downforce to get the terminal speed up. The
>HP difference isn't as great as is used to be, and the F1 cars
>are carrying less frontal area. Whether they'd still be running
>after the 1/2 way point is a different question...
>-dB

I agree -- but the 180 mph figure is the predicted top speed for the
F1 cars using their existing aero package on the new road course. I'd
love to see what they could do on the oval with a proper
"superspeedway"-type wing configuration.

-- JB

by **John Bod** » Sat, 29 May 1999 04:00:00

>With a predicted 180 mph top speed on the front straight, my guess is
>the F1 guys would get THEIR butts kicked! <G>
>--------------
>This makes no sense to me (and of course, it may well be simply a joke), so
>I ask: Is this a prediction from Ron Dennis, et al., or yourself?
>--david

No joke at all -- nor is it mere idle speculation on my part. I think
I got this info from Kevin Forbes, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway's
Director of Engineering and Construction. It was either him or Brian
Barnhart, the IRL's Director of Racing Operations. Either way, the
folks at IMS predict that with F1's current aero package, the F1 cars
should be hitting 180 - 190 at the end of the main straight going into
T1 at the new Indy F1 track. This had to be calculated and factored
into the track plans as they designed the barrier for T1. FWIW, the
current track's T4 will provide runoff area if the F1 cars overturn
the F1 track's T1 area, so there's not going to be much area in that
location, I don't think, since the T4 banking will provide a safe
"runoff" area at those speeds (the F1 cars should be able to handle
the turn at that speed, and rather than bogging down in a sand trap if
they overshoot T1, they'll just zoom on into T4 and then they'll have
a looooong way to go to get back on the track <G>).

Of interest to all you sim fans, I noticed that on the Indianapolis
Motor Speedway add-on track for GP2 (a version of the existing oval,
not a new road course add-on), I could only get the GP2 F1 cars to top
out at about 188 mph, even with the wings zeroed out. I thought this
was weird, but when I heard the predicted top end for the F1 cars from
the folks at IMS, I really had to chuckle -- and I was stunned at how
AMAZINGLY accurate the F1 cars in the GP2 sim had to be in order to
properly model the top end of the F1 cars at a track configuration
that wasn't even taken into account when the sim was developed. And
GP2 is a fairly "old" sim, too. Wow.

BTW, it's nice to be able to put aside all the IRL vs. CART feud for a
moment to share some race- and race sim-related info with fellow fans.
We should try doing that more often.

;-)

-- JB

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00

> >You want CART? You've got CART. You want NASCAR? You've got it.
> >You want varsity, JV, megabucks or spec racers, you have it all. And
> >you have more choices today than you did before the formation of the
> >IRL (plus, those loud engines are really cool)

> AMEN!

More like... ahem! Because what we don't have is the best drivers, in
the best cars on the most exciting track in the world. I'll bet you lot
were on the Microsoft side of the fence when CPR was released.

Simple question - Would it be preferable that the IRL never came
into being and Indy was STILL what it WAS?

My very simple, no brainer answer is FOR FRIGGIN SURE. And my very
simple, no brainer conclusion about those who have a different answer is
that they obviously have a*** in their ear. It's 2nd rate drivers in
2nd rate cars and it's just that simple. The rest is bullshit.

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 30 May 1999 04:00:00

> Of interest to all you sim fans, I noticed that on the Indianapolis
> Motor Speedway add-on track for GP2 (a version of the existing oval,
> not a new road course add-on), I could only get the GP2 F1 cars to top
> out at about 188 mph, even with the wings zeroed out. I thought this
> was weird, but when I heard the predicted top end for the F1 cars from
> the folks at IMS, I really had to chuckle -- and I was stunned at how
> AMAZINGLY accurate the F1 cars in the GP2 sim had to be in order to
> properly model the top end of the F1 cars at a track configuration
> that wasn't even taken into account when the sim was developed. And
> GP2 is a fairly "old" sim, too. Wow.

> BTW, it's nice to be able to put aside all the IRL vs. CART feud for a
> moment to share some race- and race sim-related info with fellow fans.
> We should try doing that more often.

> ;-)

> -- JB

John, you must have the version of GP2 distributed by the IRL.
Complete garbage. I think we can look on most of your posts as simple
comedy after this one. At least your consistant.

rec.autos.simulators

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