rec.autos.simulators

Willie Vorlov
I'm not joking here either....

Mark

Lee King

I kid you not.

~daxe

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<...>

Apparently, they take much more, given the safety record. This says more
to me about the quality of the racers and the machines, and the league in
general (where it races, where it cuts corners, what it's priorities are).

This "respect them because they are taking risks" idea doesn't cut it for
me. If anything, it is a reminder that if someone puts up the money or
potential exposure, there will always be people coming to take the
challenge.

The risk is part of the sport, but it isn't what keeps me coming to watch
the races.

<...>

OK, let's just get to the crux of the problem: it isn't just that the IRL
is, in terms of driver quality, a 3rd-tier sport- if that were all it
were, that would be fine with me. But it is much bigger than this. The IRL
was formed (by the rich and powerful fellas we know too well) as a sort of
parasite CART, using CART's biggest race and a (from the outside) very
similar formula in order to basically fool an not-too-closely-watching
american public that it was "the genuine article." The beauty of this is
that by running a much cheaper formula with many fewer races and much
cheaper racers (including, importantly, some recognizeable, if retired,
"big names"), is that the chief revenue (coming from the Indy500) gets
spread over a select small number of people. The rich get much richer.
Meanwhile, the average Joe has no idea which league is which, only cared
about the Indy500 anyway, gets what he wanted, and CART's reputation and
reason for being get's muddled in all the confusion, and it's popularity
starts to stagnate. We're seeing this. Overall, the IRL isn't picking up
new fans for open wheeled racing; open wheeled racing is simply withering
on the vine while this money-making charade goes on.

My opinion is that some rich people are getting much richer at the expense
of a sport. And I can't blame them for that- it is pure capitalism. But I
don't have to praise the glory that is IRL drivers, most of whom aren't so
stupid not to realize that they are sucking the life out of the sport.

What I can blame the IRL for is exactly what you seem to be praising them
for: the innordinate risk at which they put their drivers (and fans) in.
Whether it is the cars simply not being built up to the same standards as
CART or F1, or the fact that 3rd tier racers are driving so far over their
heads in speed, the IRL is simply not up to the safety standards we should
be seeing.

No comment. ;-)
Eldred
p.s. although that sounds like a PERSONAL problem, to me... <g>

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

In fact, it has a long, rich history of being a "run-what-ya-brung"
race (NOT a series).  Drivers who could convince a car owner to allow
them to race showed up in droves at the track in the month before the
500 and there weren't many guarantees about whether they would get
rides or not. (BTW that was happening in Gasoline Alley last weekend
as well)

Many of these drivers were right out of the USAC dirt tracks and other
minor-league oval races.  The engineers labored all winter on their
innovative cars (diesel, front wheel drive, all wheel drive, turbine)
and went to scout for drivers in May.

It wasn't until the 1970s that Pat Patrick, Penske et al. declared the
Indycar formula and turned it into a series with the 500 as its crown
jewel.

Tony George (God bless him) wrestled the Indy 500 away from the money
interests and the multi-megabuck teams and made it into a series where
the up-and-coming drivers (mostly Americans) would get the experience
and exposure to race at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle."

I attended the IRL race at Phoenix this year and was at Indy
qualifications last week.  Yes, they DO race like the junior varsity
because they are . . . just like about 75% of those drivers whose
faces appear on the Bendix trophy.

You want to see the heritage of the Indy 500, racing the way it used
to be or the way the commercial interests of the big $$ boys want you
to?  IRL has got that heritage.  CART appears to be a steppingstone
series to F1.

(BTW, do any of you remember racers like Mario Andretti, Dan Gurney
and Jackie Stewart racing at Indy, NASCAR, F1 and anyplace they could
get a ride?  If you want to see the REAL heroes of racing, the real
drivers, look at the entry lists from the 1960s)

I love NASCAR, even though it is starting to look more staged than WWF
wrestling.  I am lukewarm on CART but IRL is the one place where you
can say "I saw them there first."

-the Diamondcutter

99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport
98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart
96 Invader/Briggs racing kart

On Tue, 18 May 1999 23:50:30 -0400, "Scott B. Husted"
<SNIP>

And I just love watching the road racers, the foreign drivers and the CART/F-1
has beens and wannabes kickin' a** on the dirt trackers.

Asphalt's for racin'
Dirt's for plantin' taters ;-)

Go Arie!

-don

And thats exciting?  At this day and age of racing, its my opinion that that
is just plain dangerous as anything.  Why in the world would I want some
scrum who may just barely make the field for ONE race, racing me at 220mph?
There is no trust there, and you need trust going those speeds.  This isn't
the 40s, 50s, or 60s anymore.

A non-points event, I might add, for the Indycar formula.  Not to mention it
was always sanctioned by USAC and Indycar/CART never said who could be or
not be in it.  USAC made the rules....if the Indy had been run under
Indycar/CART guidelines solely, you think that Penske would have been able
to make that non-turbo Mercedes? Nope, he wouldn't have.  Indycars came and
gave the Indy 500 some life when they came and raced there.

No, Satan take him, George is a moron.  Wrestled away from money interests?
Right...what do you call the FIA with the agreement to build a bland F1
track for the US GP at Indy?

Indy 500 is supposed to be "Racing's Greatest Spectacle". I see absolutely
no where it says or has been claimed its "Racing's Greatest Spectacle for
AMERICAN'S ONLY".   And why in the world do I want to see up-and-coming
drivers at "Racing's Greatest Spectacle" anyways?  I'd like to see the top
Indycar type drivers racing for the title of champion...and they still
reside today in CART.   Not to mention, I think a lot of people object and
were rather annoyed with Tony's rules when he first made IRL about the
mandated # of positions for IRL cars only.  Which basically ruled out the
names of the time such as Emmo, Unser, Andretti, Sullivan, etc from running
the race and being able to qualify well.

I DON'T WANT TO WATCH JUNIOR VARISTY RACING AT THE GREATEST SPECTACLE IN
RACING.  I want to watch the PROS, the best from whatever arena come and
race in the Greatest Spectacle in Racing w/o regard to nationality.  Hell,
if I was going to choose a IRL racer as a favorite, I'd choose Arie.

IRL ain't got heritage.  IRL hasn't been around long enough.  What I want is
for Indy to have the best drivers in Indycar/openwheel racing racing at it,
not junior varsity or the Lyn St. James of the world (that god she didn't
qualify)

CART has heritage.  Nascar has more heritage and F1 has even more heritage.
Apparently, by your reasoning, since CART is a steppingstone to F1, IRL is
nothing more than a stepping stone to Nascar. :?   Nonetheless, I seem to
recall many of F1 veteran coming to CART along with a few CART boys going
over to F1 (recently: Andretti, Villenue, Zanardi RETURNING to F1)..and who
were F1 champions that were also CART champions? Emmo, Mario (who you
mention later), Nigel Mansel (ugh, ok..may have a point there)....how many
came over from F1? Eddie Cheever and whatshisname, anyways...where is Eddie
Cheever now?  IRL. Why? Couldn't get a ride.

No, but I remember Emmo and Al Unser Jr running at Indy side by side.  I
remember the closest finish at the Indy 500.  I remember Gordon Johncock
winning at Indy.  I remember Michael Andretti repeating over and over again

IRL, like Busch, like Toyota Atlantic, like IndyLights, like F3000, is where
you can see the Junior Varsity play (plus a few veterans).

Thirdly...    The IRL will always be second rate at best and may Tony George have
eyes like an eagle and his wife warts like a hog!   <G>

The point being the Indy 500 has always been the place where everyone wanted to
win!   The place where the BEST gathered to compete.   Todays IRL 500 does not
even come close to having the best.   Hell,   did Billy Boat finally make it
around a lap??   ESPN IRL Highlights look like an adverti***t for the "And they
walked away" video!

Tony George did NOT return Indy to its previous glamour.  It is not and will
never be again the "bring what you got" race.  All Tony George did was ruin the
Indy 500 due to his oversized ego.

Will I watch the IRL 500?   I will probably check in on it throughout the
afternoon to see how Tony Stewart is doing.   I will not sit down and watch the
race as a whole.  Its a total shame.  I have always been a NASCAR fan and
casually followed "Indy Cars".  However,  I always remember getting pumped and
e***d to spend the afternoon watching thy Indy 500.  For me,  it was an event
you planned for just like the Daytona 500 and the SuperBowl.  Take the phone off
the hook.  Make sure you have your favorite snacks and beverages.   Put in a
high quality VCR Tape.   etc etc.    Now,  Im lucky if I find the will to turn
the TV on to check the standings during the race =(     No interest what so ever
in finding out how a bunch of has beens and never was drivers are doing.  Maybe
I'll turn the radio on while Im washing the car.

May the IRL follow in the footsteps of the USFL!!

Scott
PA-Scott

--
Scott B. Husted
ICQ# 4395450

  Naw....save the IRL...just get it the HELL out of Indy.   I'm a race fan
from the early 70's.  I cut my racing teeth watching ABC's Wide World
of Sports.  Because of that, I had no clue the Big Nascar Cars ran at little
bitty tracks like Bristol and Martinsville.
  I read Sports Illustrated like the Bible and believe me...the ONLY racing
coverage to make it in that rag was the Indy 500.  I practically stole the
library's
copy of Popular Mechanics so I could drink in the photo's and paintings of
the
Vels-Parnelli Jones V wing cars of Unser and Andretti.
  But I also saw Chaparalls, and McClarens in Can Am.   I read about
Mustangs, Camaro's
and Barracuda's in Trans Am.   I began to enjoy the twisty racing immensly.
CART's road racing combined with the ovals and streets gave me some of the
best race viewing I have ever seen.
  But I realize what an important place the Indy race used to occupy in the
world of auto racing.  Sadly, TG(whose name I WILL not speak) up and used
"HIS" race to try and cow the CART owners into buying into the IRL idea.
Which was a good idea....  I'm all for more racing.  But he used his
financial
club(the Indy race) to try and instantly EVOLVE his series into a mature
entity.
  BAD IDEA.
  I said back then, and I'll say it now...
  The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event.
Then he could have brought in an IRL race either in June or September, do
you think
Jeff Gordon cares that the race he won at the Brickyard WASN'T the Indy 500?
dave henrie

But it's also important to recognize that removing one non-points race
from the schedule  has not harmed US auto racing in general or CART in
particular (CART has shot themselves in the foot so many times --
starting with the Greatest Debacle In Racing, the US 500 in 1995
('96?)  -- that they have more to fear from Bill France than Tony
George.)

The point is that this is not an either/or situation.  CART has a full
international schedule on ovals and road courses.  The IRL has
returned the Indy 500 to many of its historical roots and made it a
series where cubic dollars are not the most important factor in
fielding a winning car.

You want CART?  You've got CART.  You want NASCAR?  You've got it.
You want varsity, JV, megabucks or spec racers, you have it all.  And
you have more choices today than you did before the formation of the
IRL (plus, those loud engines are really cool)

-the Diamondcutter

99 Dodge Ram 1500 QC 5.2L Sport
98 Swiss-Hutless/Yamaha KT100 racing kart
96 Invader/Briggs racing kart

On Wed, 26 May 1999 07:45:24 -0500, "Chris \"Hollywood\" Schletter"

Or the World Football League.....now known as NFL Europe.  IRL becomes CART
Oval? :P

Btw, Scott...careful in washing that 67 Eagle GP car, it doesn't handle
water very well. :)

->>  The Indianapolis 500 should have remained an open event.
  Well just for grins...who are the owners of the cars
Stewart and Gordon are running?
    Aren't they already IRL teams?
  Do the CART owners have the resources to stop
work on the CHAMP car development and start up
an IRL car project.  (Maybe if Ganassi did this the
rest of the league will stand a chance)
dave henrie

AMEN!