rec.autos.simulators

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

Christer Andersso

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Christer Andersso » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Linux is free, incredibly fast and can handle more than one processor. Imagine
GPL for Linux on a dual Celeron 300A, both clocked to 450 MHz. That would give
us around 900 MHz of pure racing simulator power :o). It would actually allow
for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))... We all know Win95/98 dont
support more than one processor at the same time, so how long do we have to wait
befor we see racing simulator ports to Linux?

/Christer, rambling again, or aint I :o)???
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John Tomlinso

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by John Tomlinso » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00


>It would actually allow
>for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))

well, not sure if its only the amount shown or the actual limit, but GPL
will only go up to 36 fps......maybe thats a limit to the FPS
indicator....not sure I am a dummy on that..........I did hear BTW, that
there are Windows emulators that will allow you to run games on
linux.......but again, thats somethin I heard, and not from an extremely
reputable source.
JT
Johan Foedere

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Johan Foedere » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

That is a great idea. I have thought of that before too. I really hope
there will be Linux games soon, because I'm fat up with all that
microsuck bugware.

// Johan


> Linux is free, incredibly fast and can handle more than one processor. Imagine
> GPL for Linux on a dual Celeron 300A, both clocked to 450 MHz. That would give
> us around 900 MHz of pure racing simulator power :o). It would actually allow
> for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))... We all know Win95/98 dont
> support more than one processor at the same time, so how long do we have to wait
> befor we see racing simulator ports to Linux?

> /Christer, rambling again, or aint I :o)???
> --
> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
> racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
> has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/index.html (Join one of the
> online GPL ladders)

Bill Met

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Bill Met » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00



  Unfortunately, the answer is probably never.  The market for it is just
too small.  The only real hope would be if the game company realsed an SDK
for their sim ala Id and Valve.  Then there would be enough of a technical
base that others could begin an effort to port the sim over.
--
Bill Mette           | "A person is smart.  People are dumb."
Enteract, Chicago    |                        - K MiB

Murphb

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Murphb » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Well, I haven't got an extra PC to install my copy of Linux yet, but as a UNIX
network administrator, here's my thoughts on the matter.

Yes, most flavors of UNIX have something like SoftWindows, to run Windows
software.  This is software emulation, so there will be some processor overhead
incurred in running it.  Not having used it myself, I can't give a good
ballpark percentage figure; it may well be dependant on the individual system.

In multi-processor setups, the chips generally are set up to run in parallel -
each runs seperate threads.  How the threads are split between processors is
dependant on how the software is written.  I think the logical split for a dual
system would be physics running on one chip, and graphics on the other (though
with accelerated graphics cards, the 2nd CPU might handle car position or
something).

As for 60fps graphics, considering that movies run at 28fps and television at
30fps, IMO 60fps would be overkill, and an unnoticible improvement.  The
physics would probably not be "twice as good", but could perhaps be sampled
twice as often, therefore giving a smoother feel to it.

Bob

Travis Kallne

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Travis Kallne » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Its not a racing sim, but its a start. Sid Meier's Civilization III is going to be
sold with Linux support. First ever game to be sold in shrink wrap to support Linux.
Maybe other's will catch up on the idea. Good source for more on Linux is ZDTV's
Screen Savers, cause one of the hosts, Leo Laporte, is obsessed with Linux.
Daxe Rexfor

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Daxe Rexfor » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00


>Linux is free, incredibly fast and can handle more than one processor.
Imagine
>GPL for Linux on a dual Celeron 300A, both clocked to 450 MHz. That would
give
>us around 900 MHz of pure racing simulator power :o). It would actually
allow
>for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))... We all know Win95/98
dont
>support more than one processor at the same time, so how long do we have to
wait
>befor we see racing simulator ports to Linux?

This isn't intended to be a slam or an endor***t of anything, so please
don't take it that way.

Linux will never be a popular OS because installing it and setting it up is
more difficult than Windows.  People already *** and moan about how hard
it is to install and run and configure Windows, they certainly aren't going
to be lining up to do something more difficult. Until there is a huge
installed base of Linux boxes (never) you aren't going to see popular
software support for it in any substantial form.  Already, lots of popular
software titles are dropping MAC support and OS/2 failed IN PART because of
lack of software.

To a bunch like us, who are probably more computer and hardware savvy than
the average user, setting up Linux may not seem like a huge undertaking, but
anyone who has played 'computer guru' over the phone to friends and family
(or in a professional setting) know how utterly clueless most of the general
populous is about ANYTHING regarding computer configuration.  Have you ever
tried to talk someone through something as simple as managing the items on
the start menu in Win95, or creating a shortcut?  People don't even know
they can resize/move windows, change screen res/color depth, that there is a
right-click context menu, or even where to click or double click.  These
same people call hard disk space, 'memory' and think that AOL chat rooms are
the internet.  Just tonight, my Mother in law, who has been a computer user
for over 5 years, aked me what my 'handle' is on the internet because she
saw someone with my name in a room on AOL and thought it was me.

Whatever.  This is just a rant..ignore me.

daxe

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Wosc

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Wosc » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

The thing about the 36FPS is that it is to coordinate the FPS with the
physics model.  I guess they want the frames to match up correctly and no
repeat frames where the calculations will be off.  That is a reason why the
car is harder to drive at lower fps, the physics arent synchronized
correctly.

Jesse



>>It would actually allow
>>for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))

>well, not sure if its only the amount shown or the actual limit, but GPL
>will only go up to 36 fps......maybe thats a limit to the FPS
>indicator....not sure I am a dummy on that..........I did hear BTW, that
>there are Windows emulators that will allow you to run games on
>linux.......but again, thats somethin I heard, and not from an extremely
>reputable source.
>JT

Wosc

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Wosc » Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:00:00

...and think that AOL chat rooms are

Hehe, i talk to all sorts of people and I ask them what they do online and
they just chat.  Thats all, go to a chatroom and talk.  I was trying to tell
someone how to get to my web site and they were like, whats a website.  So i
had to tell them to click the globe button (remembering from way back when,
when i had aol), then to type in the address into the box that has the
http://www.aol.com in it.  They typed it into the search field.  Said my web
page never came up.  It took about 10 more minutes but finally they found
the place and typed it in and got there.  AOL is such a hoax. Their adds
say, "easiest to use", yet when i go to the store, i see a book twice the
size of a bible with the title, "How to use AOL".

Just ranting like everyone else that says anything.
Jesse

Mike Hatel

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Mike Hatel » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00

AFAIK a sim would have to be written specifically to multi-thread in order
to use a dual CPU.
GPL (if win 98 DID support it) would pretty much thrash one CPU.
Also SMP boxes never get twice the performance of 2 CPUs due to task
scheduling / inter-process calls / resource contention.
If GPL was ported tomorrow most of the hardware we wanted to use wouldn't
have decent drivers.

Believe it or not I'm a rabid supporter of Linux and would LOVE to see it
harnessed for more mainstream applications than it's current web-server
fan-base.

this wasn't intend to flame, Christer; You're a fine chap !

Mike

:)


>Linux is free, incredibly fast and can handle more than one processor.
Imagine
>GPL for Linux on a dual Celeron 300A, both clocked to 450 MHz. That would
give
>us around 900 MHz of pure racing simulator power :o). It would actually
allow
>for 60 fps in GPL, or physics twice as good :o)))... We all know Win95/98
dont
>support more than one processor at the same time, so how long do we have to
wait
>befor we see racing simulator ports to Linux?

>/Christer, rambling again, or aint I :o)???
>--
>http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
>racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause
noone
>has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o)).
>http://home.swipnet.se/~w-41236/GplLadder/SOGL/index.html (Join one of the
>online GPL ladders)

Paul Jone

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Paul Jone » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00

The extra work involved in developing multi-processor sims is far from trivial - I
know because I design and code multi-threaded apps for a living. Multi-threaded
apps only really work properly if they are originally designed as such and it is
not simply a case of porting the app to a multi-processor environment. There are
several important issues:
1) Memory and resource contention. 2 or more threads must be prevented from
accessing the same memory or other resouirces simultaneously. Thread control
mecanisms must be used to prevent this. It is not simply a case of sprinkling
thread control objects around your code because you will almost always be left with
several threads executing one after another - which is actually less efficient than
a single-threaded app.
2) Deadlocks and deadly embraces. Once you have all these thread control objects in
place the most common problem is to have two threads each waiting for a thread
control object that the other owns. These are often a nightmare to rid from your
app - and a maintenance headache as well. Once multi-threaded sims are released we
will start to see much more "freezing up" than you get at the moment.
3) Unix in most, but not all, of its flavours only supports heavy-weight threading
models (ie on a process level) and this would be unacceptable in a racing sim. All
methods of crossing the process boundary are expensive in terms of processor usage.
I don't know whether Linux supports light-weight threading, but apart from the old
IBM mainframe operating systems, the best light-weight threading model I have seen
is in Windows NT - soon to become Windows 2000 and to replace Windows 98
altogether. This is hardly surprising since it is based on DEC's VMS, IMHO, one of
the best operating systems ever written.
4) Putting 2 processors in a box does not double your processing power. The OS
needs to spend some processor time managing the extra complexity introduced. At an
extreme end I believe that with NT 3.51 there was no extra benefit to be had by
placing more than 4 processors in a box. I think these problems are sorted out, but
it is still the case that you cannot multiply your processors speed by how many
you've got to give you a final "power" figure.
5) Multi-processor motherboards are expensive, as are the CPUs you can put in them.
Given this, the low usage of Linux (as already mentioned) and the maintenance
problems multi-threading causes, I think it is unlikely that we will see
multi-threading in sims in the next 5 years.
Cheers,
Paul

> Well, I haven't got an extra PC to install my copy of Linux yet, but as a UNIX
> network administrator, here's my thoughts on the matter.

> Yes, most flavors of UNIX have something like SoftWindows, to run Windows
> software.  This is software emulation, so there will be some processor overhead
> incurred in running it.  Not having used it myself, I can't give a good
> ballpark percentage figure; it may well be dependant on the individual system.

> In multi-processor setups, the chips generally are set up to run in parallel -
> each runs seperate threads.  How the threads are split between processors is
> dependant on how the software is written.  I think the logical split for a dual
> system would be physics running on one chip, and graphics on the other (though
> with accelerated graphics cards, the 2nd CPU might handle car position or
> something).

> As for 60fps graphics, considering that movies run at 28fps and television at
> 30fps, IMO 60fps would be overkill, and an unnoticible improvement.  The
> physics would probably not be "twice as good", but could perhaps be sampled
> twice as often, therefore giving a smoother feel to it.

> Bob

Daxe Rexfor

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Daxe Rexfor » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Scary, ain't it?

I forgot another favorite *** about AOL..their built in Web Browser
defaults to recompressing all the graphics it loads from the web.  I take a
lot of time to make the graphics on my website look the way they look and it
galls me that anyone on AOL who hasn;t waded through the 5 levels of config
options to change it (presuming they even knew it was there) thinks that I
have no idea what looks good.  Grrr!

daxe
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

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Ronald Stoe

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Ronald Stoe » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00


> Well, I haven't got an extra PC to install my copy of Linux yet, but as a UNIX
> network administrator, here's my thoughts on the matter.

> Yes, most flavors of UNIX have something like SoftWindows, to run Windows
> software.  This is software emulation, so there will be some processor overhead
> incurred in running it.  Not having used it myself, I can't give a good
> ballpark percentage figure; it may well be dependant on the individual system.

> In multi-processor setups, the chips generally are set up to run in parallel -
> each runs seperate threads.  How the threads are split between processors is
> dependant on how the software is written.  I think the logical split for a dual
> system would be physics running on one chip, and graphics on the other (though
> with accelerated graphics cards, the 2nd CPU might handle car position or
> something).

That's close to what I dreamed about in another post. It would be great to
have a GPL server that I could run on my Linux machine while having the client
on my Win95 box. Hey, it works great with Q2...

There you are in error. I can FEEL the difference between 30 and 60fps.

l8er
ronny

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       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Uwe Schuerka

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Uwe Schuerka » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00



Hi christer!

I too am a Linux user and have written to both Ubisoft (no reply, duh)
and Sierra asking them about a Linux port of their products. Sierra
people were nice enough to "forward the message to the appropriate
people", so I think they have seen the light and at least heard of
Linux.

I hope we'll see 1999 as the year that saw a lot of game releases for
Linux, and if Civilization III (coming in March, I hear), takes off
other game companies might get interested as well. You can hardly
generate more hype about Linux than you currently see in the
publications, so we stand a good chance of seeing more game companies
doing ports / releases for Linux.

Just imagine: No more unsolvable driver / directx / whatever /***OS
conflicts, just pure *** joy! Install it once and it'll run forever.
 Let's hope it is going to happen soon, and maybe accelerate the
process a little by making ourselves heard.

SMP machines aren't too common as a *** platform (because of the
sucky way that NT "supports" (or tries to, rather) them, Win98/95
doesn't even know what two cpu's might be useful for), but it's a well
known fact that QuakeII achieves higher frame rates on Linux systems
than on similar Windows hardware, so in general performance of native
Linux versions should be considerably higher than under Windows.

If those people who cannot run GPL satisfyingly on their current
setups would demand an optimized Linux port finally giving them the
performance they once paid their hard-earned bucks for instead of
having it swamped by that sloppy OS from Hell (tm) the ports might be
appearing more quickly than what we currently see.

GPL and MGPRS2 are the only things I have to reboot into Windows
for, if I get them or similar stuff for Linux, it's Windows refund
day. ;-)

Cheers for now,

Uwe

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Uwe Schuerka

Linux, a great platform for racing simulators...

by Uwe Schuerka » Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:00:00



>AFAIK a sim would have to be written specifically to multi-thread in order
>to use a dual CPU.
>GPL (if win 98 DID support it) would pretty much thrash one CPU.
>Also SMP boxes never get twice the performance of 2 CPUs due to task
>scheduling / inter-process calls / resource contention.
>If GPL was ported tomorrow most of the hardware we wanted to use wouldn't
>have decent drivers.

>Believe it or not I'm a rabid supporter of Linux and would LOVE to see it
>harnessed for more mainstream applications than it's current web-server
>fan-base.

>this wasn't intend to flame, Christer; You're a fine chap !

>Mike

I'm very happy to see so many responses (most of them positive) in
connection with Linux in this newsgroup. (this used to be quite
different as some of you may remember half a year ago in this ng).

Let's take it as a sign that the Linux user base is really growing
at the "doubling per year"-rate that we have seen over the last
four or five years, and if this keeps up, we'll see our beloved
games ported to Linux for sure.

If any of you are into software development you'll definitely know
about the advantages of programming in a Linux environment that is
rock stable, doesn't mind user apps goofing up however hard they
try to take down the system and so on. Once games developers get
the hang of it  they'll most probably never look back at the dark
ages that we're living in now.

BTW, just a small correction: CivIII is NOT Sid Meyers game, but
Activision bought the rights to the name and are now doing
"Call to Power" or whatever the subtitle is on their own. The
screenshots look impressive, and I see nothing that would prevent
GPL or MGPRS2 from really shining on the Linux platform.

Cheers,

Uwe

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