rec.autos.simulators

Hi Brett,

this posting made me feel warm all over. Thanks! ;-) Who would have
thought that so many Linux people would raise there (ugly not!;-) heads
in this NG a year ago? It feels good to know I am not alone anymore ;-)

Just to clarify things: This of course does not imply that you cannot
develop commercial software for Linux and make a living off it. Look
for example at Applixware (a complete office suite for Linux) or maybe
even quake/quake2 which are available commercially, and the Linux
distributions which sell like hot-cakes at the moment (SuSE Linux is on
six weeks backorder last I checked).

In closing, games developers may very well make a living off releasing
their stuff for Linux (read: charge money for their work), and I am
sure we will see several releases this year. Let's hope that the GNU
Public License isn't the only idiom for which GPL stands on Linux by
the end of the year.

Cheers,

Uwe

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daxe

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Brett Reschke wrote >...

You are still missing the point. "Interested hackers taking a stab" are
doing so because it's fun to them.  What if no hackers are interested in
having fun doing development for XYZ peripheral that the public is
embracing?  The public's interest in the OS will wane and the paradigm will
keep on humming away in its isolated corner of the computer universe because
it isn't based on satisfying the *consumer*.  If the development is getting
done, how is the mainstream public supposed to know about it without it
being advertised?  Who is going to pay to advertise something if no-one is
making a profit?  Do you expect everyone to visit a website and download and
install the latest whatever of their own volition?  Ask a basic mainstream
Windows user to update their video driver, see what happens.  Basic
mainstream Linux users wouldn't be any smarter.

Furthermore, people keep projecting that Linux will be as 'user friendly' as
Windows at some point.  It was also noted that a GUI is a significant drag
on resources. Do you suppose that when Linux has the same friendly GUI,
supports the same range of hardware (new and old) and has to run as many
disparate and sometimes poorly written programs and drivers as Windows, that
it will be any less bloated, hungry and unstable?  Make sure you are really
looking at the whole picture.

At the risk of sounding jingoistic, I have noticed that a large portion of
the interest in Linux is coming from Europe.  Success is really just short
for commercial success, and it might be the case that the European
contingent just doesn't grasp the reality that something needs to be
commercially proferred and marketed to become commercially successful.
There is really a raw, blind, disgusting commercial lust in America that is
responsible for the fact that something is not considered a BIG commercial
success unless America buys it.

  I see all the Linux advocacy really being focused on unseating Microsoft.
As a Linux advocate, if the point really is that you want to have a stable,
efficient OS to use, don't you already have that?  What do you care what
everyone else in the world uses for an OS if you're happy with yours?  I see
Linux being a smashing success amongst the only people who have the
possibility of being served well by it, and they already are.  The
mainstream home computing environment is where large-scale smash Microsoft
unseating success happens,  and without a commercial paradigm, that just
ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.   Keep it in perspective...Experienced internet users
almost uniformly detest AOL, but it is the darling of mainstream computer
users.  Experienced computer users often find themselves in the
Microsoft-hater camp, but to mainstream users it is just the company that
makes their software and they are glad about it.  It is obviously not
because they are superior products, but because they are marketed well.  If
you think that reality is going to change substantially and make a
communally developed, non-profit hobbyist OS more popular than MS, you are
suffering serious delusions.

Anecdotal successes don't mean squat, either, so please don't bother using
them as a defense.  Look at the whole reality, human nature and the modern
marketplace included, and you will see that there is no possibility Linux
will ever be substantially more than what it is.

Or maybe I'm just full of crap.  Probably  :o)

daxe

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All in good fun.

Jack

I noticed at Best Buy yesterday that there is now Corel WordPerfect 8 for
Linux.

ANash

At what point is a non-commercial operating system non-promoted by anonymous
computer geeks going to fascinate them into dumping everything they have to
gain an advantage that no-one is explaining to them that they wouldn't even
understand? (whew!)

And really..give me some figures about this growth in the MAINSTEAM MARKET
of Linux.  It exists and is accepted and successful in the areas where it is
understood and can be put to good use, but it will NEVER be even marginally
popular as a mainstream desktop OS.

Mainstream..NOT corporate NOT network NOT net servers NOT computer hobbyists
NOT programmers/developers NOT *** sim-racers!!

daxe

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// Johan

This is where the change will start. The people who setup the computer
networks for companies are very well aware of the advantages of Linux in
stability and safety. Already companies are rejecting their NT servers
and are replacing them with Linux servers. In time the workstations will
follow the servers and that will be turning point. People will want to
use Linux at home.

And what mainstream user cares about stuff like plug and play? Do you
really think they are willing, or even dare to open their PC and plug in
a new soundcard? It will be sufficient for pc selling stores to install
and configure Linux. And if they ever need an upgrade? They'll go back
to the store and let someone install it for them. That's the same way it
goes today. From a users point of view Linux is no harder to use than
Windows. Netscape can still be started by a double click and enter still
brings you to the next line in a word processor.

You're right the mainstream user doesn't care who made the software, so
why would they keep buying MS software? I really don't see any MS
commercials on TV to convince them!

// Johan

NT2K Consumer has been delayed 3 _years_, and now Win98 is no longer
expected to be the last 9x version...

Who didn't see this coming?

I'll speculate that MS is having a _bear_ of a time getting PnP and
other 'consumer' features working on the NT Kernel, and they
over-estimated the work that would be involved.

-Larry

l8er
ronny

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Strange as it sounds, I have experienced more people willing to do that than
to try and, say, change a device driver for an existing piece of hardware!
Part of the trepidation they feel is that they believe their computer is
filled to the bursting point with a snakepit of wires and incomprehensible
electronic components.  Many get a sense of confidence when they see how
empty their computer really is.  Still, you are right, plug and play is not
for the mainstreamer.  Troubleshooting a plug 'n' play detection that
duplicates an existing component or wrongly detects a new one is also not
much fun, even for people who know what they are doing! (sarcasm alert) My
favorite thing about Win98 is the way you have to NOT have a COM port
installed in order to use it for a modem.  What a clusterf*ck that it!

All true and a good point.  I still see a chicken-or-the-egg thing about it
though.  Your model of workplace installations filtering down into the home
environment is interesting and likely true to some extent, but I still don't
see it triggering a mass exodus since I don't think the majority of computer
'inspiration' comes from the workplace or schools.  MACs are prevalent in
schools because the company promotes themself that way, but people still
leave school and buy PCs.  It's just so much like a small wave trying to
take over a much larger one. Then..there is the fact that the same people in
retail stores who*** people on component upgrade installations and
troubleshooting for a living really aren't going to be keen on an OS that
doesn't require frequent, wallet-filling maintenance and may not be
interested in pushing it. (Human nature again)

In particular, MS Office is very pervasive.  The names of the parts of the
suite are often some of the few buzz words that neophytes know.  I don't
think they really care if they have Excel or Word, but whatever they do have
has to be absolutely transparently compatable with these programs' latest
versions for it to work.

Thanks for this discussion..I am really enjoying it,

daxe

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On previous threads I do see the relevance of Mazlow and the motivation of
Linux developers.  How would you like to become famous for the LINUX GPL or
F1RS code.  Open Source, I suppose, make it possible and maybe fame not
money will be the motivation.
Great (but off-topic) thread.

Terry

daxe

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That's because people feel more comfortable with things they can touch.
But after plugging it, you still have to install a driver for it! How
many people will still know what to do then?

True, but most of them still don't know how to treat a computer, they
get over confident. Once I was installing a new videocard in someones
computer and he thought the computer was a bit dusty on the inside. So
what does he do? He plugs in his full sized vacuum cleaner and starts to
clean out the computer's inside. You should have seen him busy, that
couldn't be good for the computer, but he insisted it had to be done!
:-)

Let's not bring back all those back memories, shall we :-)

You're right, there is and that's why thing are changing so slowly. If
people want Linux, but they can't buy it anywhere, all is lost. The same
thing works the other way around, if shops are selling Linux PC's, but
nobody buys it...

But I bet that all these people have also used a PC before and heard a
lot about it from people around them. If these people around them are
telling good things about Linux and BAD things about Windows, people
will buy Linux PC's.

This is not an issue. Component upgrades are independant from the OS.
The faster PC's get, the more demanding the software gets. As a result
computer hardware will always be too slow for the current software. Just
look at GPL ( hurray, we're back on topic :-) ) with it's advanced
physics model that requires a high end PC just to be able to run. If
papy had put everything they wanted in that sim nobody would be able to
run it, so if PC's get faster, papy will start over and we're back to
the start.

People don't want latest versions. I know people who don't even want
Word, because they think it's too hard to use. All the possibilities
scares them, they only want to be able to type a letter! Even wordpad
has more than they'll ever use. Remember, people that buy their first PC
are still using typewrites.

Me too,

// Johan

Even when running KDE (the desktop you're probably on about, see
http://www.kde.org) Quake2 comes up much faster under Linux than the
Windows version on the same machine due to Linux' much more efficent
resource use.

Cheers for now,

Uwe

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        "This is Linux country. On a quiet night, you can hear
         Windows NT reboot." ;-)

Cheers,

Uwe

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