rec.autos.simulators

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Bob

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by Bob » Wed, 15 May 2002 10:46:02


>A friend yesterday reminded me of the Italian GP 1956, where a direct
>competitor for that year's title yielded his car to another driver.

>This driver, Collins, came into the pits for a tire-check with 15 laps to
>go, and yielded his car to Fangio, whose car had broken down with a
>mechanical failure. Fangio accepted.

>Collins thereby gave up his chances for the title that year, while Fangio
>finished second and took this year's title. His third in a row if
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>Achim

And then there's the 1964 Mexican GP, final race of the season. Two
laps to go, Clark (leading the race and the championship) retires
putting Gurney into the lead.  Bandini and Surtees are running 2nd and
3rd respectively for Ferrari.  Surtees needs 6 points to clinch the
World Championship, so Ferrari orders Bandini to slow down and let
Surtees pass.  Lorenzo obeys and Big John is the World Champion.  (And
this after Bandini punted the only other championship contender,
Graham Hill, off the track at the hairpin early in the race).  So,
team orders came into play on that day and nobody said anything
negative.  Which raises the question:  when are team orders okay and
when are they not?  Is it okay if it's the final race of the season
and the championship's on the line, but not if it's the sixth race of
the season with a healthy championship lead?    
Dave Henri

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by Dave Henri » Wed, 15 May 2002 11:58:10

"Ronald Stoehr" <
was...

   Wouldn't that have made for dramatic TV...Ruebens slows down and MS,
rather than pass him by, locks up all for wheels in a billowing cloud of
smoke.   RB gets the hint and crosses first....ah well...all that smoke must
have been a pipe dream.
   I'm a-bit leery of MS's last lap explanation.  RB began slowing down for
each of the last 4 laps.  He had been running 1:09's easily, at the end all
his laps were in the 1:10 range....How do they do that btw....???   let off
or push harder for such tiny increments...astounds me with the clocks they
must have in their heads...
dave henrie

Uncle Feste

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by Uncle Feste » Wed, 15 May 2002 12:12:14



>> Although I like you personally, this is a most repulsive statement.  
>> It makes you sound like a Corporate *** as well.  The individual
>> should come first, not the organization.  When the organization gets
>> out of place, they need to be put back in their place by the
>> individual.  Like MS using his brakes & refusing their false win.  And
>> it's not anti-MS jealousy talking either.  I'd feel the same if it had
>> been JPM or anyone else.  Instead by playing along with the Ferrari
>> organization, he sold his character & morals for $$.  What better
>> example of a Corporate ***?

> What a childish view of the world. Sorry for the harsh words, but unless
> you succeed in world revolution, this is idealistic dreaming. MS is a
> very dedicated racer and does (meanwhile) not give a rats ass about money,
> he just wants to race this car.

MS is one of the few drivers that could pull this off & survive.
Ferrari couldn't fire him for it, could you imagine the public backlash
over *that*?  With his skills, they won't refuse to renew his contract
either.  Instead of childish, I'd call it streetwise.  Knowing where you
can push & where you can't.

Although it's OT & has been discussed here once before, in the last 6
years where I work we've had 7 bosses.  We are auto mechanics.  If/when
they step too far out of line, we all band together & write repair
orders in such a way that our company cannot collect warranty money.
The managers end up unemployed.  Even the small worker has some areas
where he wields power.  He just needs the insight to see it & the
backbone to capitalize on it.

Agreed.  But when laws/orders are *wrong*, will you comply anyways?
That would be hard to respect.  Guess the anarchist in me doesn't
understand such thinking.

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
     -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

Uncle Feste

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by Uncle Feste » Wed, 15 May 2002 12:14:25


> Tough situation?! Yeah right, my heart bleeds for him...no really, it
> does...honest.

:-D

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
     -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

Uncle Feste

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by Uncle Feste » Wed, 15 May 2002 12:26:28


> For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how early
> was that decision made?  If it was only ordered on the last lap, there might
> not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through.  If they
> had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf.  I agree
> that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and let
> Rubens take the victory.  We just don't know how long the discussion was...

Does it really matter how long they had?  With any character, once RB
pulled over to let him pass, MS should have stopped as well.  Let
Ferrari pay the ultimate price for such a bad decision by not getting
anything out of it.  The FIA has already said these things (fixed
outcomes) cannot happen again, so you think Ferrari would fire MS for
it?  For refusing to break FIA rules?  Hardly.  Bet any other teams
would think twice before trying such team orders too, if it was felt
their drivers would possibly do the same thing.

These guys need a union.  :-P

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
     -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

Dave Henri

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by Dave Henri » Wed, 15 May 2002 12:54:45

"Bob"
(snipage)

  Now now...don't be confounding and/or clouding up this thread with facts
and actual 'I was there' stuff, we won't stand for it....
dave henrie

Dave Henri

SPOILER ALERT - Austrian F1 - SPOILER ALERT

by Dave Henri » Wed, 15 May 2002 13:01:29

">
  I thought it was the other way around...the year MS broke his leg, they
were all trumpeting the manufactuer champeenship.
  Now....I do have a theory.....
    Eddie Irvine 'could' have been world champion at Ferrari BEFORE MS.
Remember how MS broke his leg, and Eddie takes charge.  At Hockenheimring, a
Mercedes track if there ever was one, Eddie storms through the field and
wins...
Next race Eddie can clinch the title, but the new pieces that were on the
car for Hock are not there in (Japan or Malyasia...I forgets which) Eddie
comments on that....and goes much slower  Mika takes command of the Driver
points.  MS returns, the new pieces are back for the final race, and MS
drives away...Eddie can't match Mika's pace in the last race and Mika
wins...Eddie, comes in 2nd for the drivers title....perhaps if Ferrari
wasn't so fixated on winning the title with Michael, then Eddie
coulda/shoulda won it before him....
dave henrie
(my apologies if If I scrambled up the exact details but the gist is there)

David Er

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by David Er » Wed, 15 May 2002 18:03:35


him

I remember that race as I was following the championship closely. There was
certainly a lot of controversy about Bandinis behaviour particularly over
the Hill punt. MANY negative things were said then but time has reduced the
1964 season to nothing more than dry facts now. Anyway this is apples to
oranges; in 1964 it was the last race of the season and the math of the
championship was obvious.

Another one who considers the latest fiasco disgusting

David

JM

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by JM » Thu, 16 May 2002 03:43:15


No it was a British GP, I don't recall the year.
That was certainly the story at the time.

cheers
John

JM

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by JM » Thu, 16 May 2002 03:47:24


They had been told not to push, and it was the very last lap than Todt
passed Brawn a "note". They made great mention of it on the ITV commentary.

cheers
John

Tony Van Caute

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by Tony Van Caute » Thu, 16 May 2002 20:46:36

I feel sorry for Rubens, you cant blame a team from having a second
driver that is not the same level as your number one driver, but
sabotaging the results this way, is not very nice. I can understand they
want as much points as they can for a certain driver, but to let the
other driver pay for it with a victory, is very doubtful to me. Rubens
should raise a complaint to F1 for bad behaviour of his team. It IS a
sport, NOT a business, some things you just don't do.

Other propositions for Ferrari:
- choose a second driver with more money and less experience
- decide to go for a one-car team, and search for a false reason why
- pay other teams
- pay F1
- blackmail ppl
- buy the other teams
- sabotage some cars (including the 2nd drivers car)

Now some things come clear to me, remember all of the races of this
season, Barrichello having surprisingly much 'bad luck' with his car,
while Schumachers cars just ran fine ... any race. It all smells bad.


> Hey Dave,

> I guess I must be the melodrama queen, ehh?

> I am not a fan of NASCAR the way I am a fan of F1, Cart, IRL, Barber Dodge
> etc,etc,etc...

> I just feel that the fans were robbed of seeing the hard work and trouble
> that Ruben's been through this year pay off.  Sometimes the nice guys should
> win....

> BTW, I am a Jaguar fan (but I'm starting to regret that path  :)

> Wayne



> > > > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's
> full
> > > of
> > > > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.
> > > Tempting
> > > > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do
> right
> > > > now.

> > > > David G Fisher

> > >   I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave..............

> > > -John

> > No, I wasn't. Sorry about that.

> > David G Fisher

--

rgds,
Tony

  Tony.Van.Cauter.vcf
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Eldre

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by Eldre » Fri, 17 May 2002 01:56:24



>1. Yes they can shut the car off with two way telemetry, I'm reminded of a
>certain N.Mansell waving to the crowd with a comfortable lead on his final
>lap and the gesture being mistaken from the pit as a warning, and the car
>rolling to a stop.

The team SHUT OFF his car?!?  What year was that?  If you could point to a
resource somewhere, I'd appreciate it...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

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Eldre

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by Eldre » Fri, 17 May 2002 01:56:24


writes:


>> For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how
>early
>> was that decision made?  If it was only ordered on the last lap, there
>might
>> not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through.  If
>they
>> had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf.  I
>agree
>> that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and
>let
>> Rubens take the victory.  We just don't know how long the discussion was...

>Does it really matter how long they had?  With any character, once RB
>pulled over to let him pass, MS should have stopped as well.  Let
>Ferrari pay the ultimate price for such a bad decision by not getting
>anything out of it.  The FIA has already said these things (fixed
>outcomes) cannot happen again, so you think Ferrari would fire MS for
>it?  For refusing to break FIA rules?  Hardly.  Bet any other teams
>would think twice before trying such team orders too, if it was felt
>their drivers would possibly do the same thing.

>These guys need a union.  :-P

If the drivers weren't notified until the last lap, I can see there being some
confusion about it.
I still think that it's a TEAM decision, and the FIA shouldn't have anything to
do with it.  Teams make decisions about/for their drivers all the time.
Example:  there's a start line crash, both team cars are damaged, and there's
only one backup car.  Of course, the #1 driver gets the backup for the restart.
 Yeah, that's an extreme example, but it's the same thing...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

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Eldre

SPOILER ALERT - Austrian F1 - SPOILER ALERT

by Eldre » Fri, 17 May 2002 03:06:02



>Now some things come clear to me, remember all of the races of this
>season, Barrichello having surprisingly much 'bad luck' with his car,
>while Schumachers cars just ran fine ... any race. It all smells bad.

Also, Rubens didn't even HAVE the 2002 car for a couple of races, but Michael
did.  What's up with THAT?

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

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