rec.autos.simulators

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Tue, 14 May 2002 14:30:49

> > Second, I'm not a jealous type, but a champion must win races,

> Something MS has done more than any other, and something he makes look
> rather easy because he's probably the greatest driver ever.

It sure looked easy yesterday. :-/

Seems to me MS has rarely stayed ahead of his teammate on A1 ring.
(1998 4 sec ahead of Irvine, and 1997, Irvine crashed.)

Didn't like it in 1998, either. BTW. What did FIA say after that race?

IMO, the team should worry about the manufacturers championship, and
let the drivers worry about the drivers championship. The team did not
gain any points by yesterdays incident. Maybe FIA should just remove
the drivers championship, and only have a manufacturers championship?
(I'm serious. Isn't that what we have anyway?)

Why do I bother, MotoGP is more entertaining anyway. Anyone know how
we can get the Ferrari bigwigs to watch a video of the Ukawa/Rossi
finish in South Africa? Maybe they could learn something about racing
or if that is not what they are into, entertainment.
--
-asbjxrn

by **Joachim Trens** » Tue, 14 May 2002 17:46:11

One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other
teammates don't? ;-)

Achim

...

by **Rafe McAuliff** » Tue, 14 May 2002 19:14:28

Jim Clark?

by **Rafe McAuliff** » Tue, 14 May 2002 19:19:31

On Sun, 12 May 2002 15:16:30 GMT, Edward C

>You are probably right Doug, what a sham... last time I get up at 7 a.m.
> on my only day off to watch a predetermined outcome!

>Edward

I agree, what a waste of my night to watch Rubens get shafted like
that. I certainly won't be watching Monaco in two weeks time (Ferrari
territory), RB isn't allowed to win races and I'm sick of seeing MS
romping away to victory (whether he deserves it or not).

Rafe Mc

by **Asbj?rn Bj?rnst** » Tue, 14 May 2002 19:22:53

> I hear what you're saying Goy, but I doubt if many people in that position
> would have done as suggested. To get to be that good, takes such drive,
> dedication, etc., that being a "nice guy/sportsman" rarely fits into the
> equation. Anything for the win, period, is the usual line of thinking.
> I sure can't think of anyone that would have done it, past or present, of
> the same caliber of MS skill-wise.

Gilles Villeneuve.
I skimmed a legends-article from Motorsport about Gilles yesterday. It
mentioned the last race of some season, where the team had decided
that if the drivers ended up as 1-2 during the race, the car in front
would be the winner. Sure enough, lap 13 and Gilles is #2 behind his
teammate. And stays there, losing the championship in the
process. Asked about it after the race he said something like: "I
really hoped he would break, but I wouldn't break my word."

(Don't have the magazine right there, it is the one with Graham Hill
on the cover.)
--
-asbjxrn

by **Rafe McAuliff** » Tue, 14 May 2002 19:21:57

What would Enzo Ferrari say? He'd roll over in his grave.

Rafe Mc

by **Uncle Feste** » Tue, 14 May 2002 20:54:50

> Too bad for Earnhardt then, he should of used a different strategy that
> wouldn't of seen him dropped down the field if one car passes him. Fact is,
> Waltrip was told to let Earnhardt win. No different than Barrichello.
> Different reaction though.

WTF??? Where was Waltrip ahead, just to pull over & let Junior ahead to
take the win? I must have missed *that* one. Or else the two were
nothing alike...

Just because "it's been done this way for a long time" still does not
make it right David. Not jealousy, indignation & repulsion is much closer.

Although I like you personally, this is a most repulsive statement. It
makes you sound like a Corporate *** as well. The individual should
come first, not the organization. When the organization gets out of
place, they need to be put back in their place by the individual. Like
MS using his brakes & refusing their false win. And it's not anti-MS
jealousy talking either. I'd feel the same if it had been JPM or anyone
else. Instead by playing along with the Ferrari organization, he sold
his character & morals for $$. What better example of a Corporate ***?

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> 4/15/02

by **Uncle Feste** » Tue, 14 May 2002 20:59:57

> One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other
> teammates don't? ;-)

I'd say it's a quite effective way of showing his displeasure with the
decision made. Make it obvious as hell, angering as many observers as
possible at those responsible. Great move by RB. :-) More backbone
than those who would "fake it" to the end.

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> 4/15/02

by **Muzz** » Tue, 14 May 2002 22:07:52

I wouldn't say that... I raced as Schumi just last night, and I even tried
to drive like he does - I used my indestructible car to ram all of my
competitors off the circuit, and simply cruised to victory unchallenged...
:-)

Muzza

by **Joel A. Willstei** » Tue, 14 May 2002 22:05:38

Dave,

Your not going to tell me that you honestly think that Schumacher
deserved to win. Is so, then what's the point of a teammate? Just to keep
him out there blocking the other guys.

Joel Willstein

--

"If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner
till the time you brake for the next turn
, then you have enough horsepower."
Mark Donohue

> > > > > > What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they
> would
> > > > > > have experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during
the
> > > > > > press conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The
> > best
> > > > > > man and car should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.

> > > > > > This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1,
all
> > they
> > > > > > will see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it.

> > > > > > Wayne
> > > > > > (A very irate American F1 Fan)

> > > > > Actually today's fiasco reminded me of a good percentage of the
> NASCAR
> > > > > races I've watched, in terms of fixing who gets to win.

> > > > > cheers
> > > > > John

> > > > Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the
> > Talladega
> > > > win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the time.

> > > > Now we get to hear Ferrari and MS bashing for a few days from
jealous
> > fans
> > > > of other drivers/teams. <yawn>

> > > > David G Fisher

> > > I think it's safe to say what happened today, has happened all the
> time
> > in
> > > F1 also, just a bit more blatant this time, but what's the difference
> > > between that an ordering someone into the pits, as has happened in F1
> > since
> > > stops were started ?

> > > As far as accepting "all the time" per above in Nascar races ?
Don't
> > > think so.............don't know who said that, but it wasn't me <G>

> > > -John

> > Just finished reading through this thread and all I can say is it's full
> of
> > bullshit from the usual F1/MS bashers and some mello-drama queens.
> Tempting
> > to respond to a few of them, but I've got some better things to do right
> > now.

> > David G Fisher

> I'm hoping you're not putting me in that catagory Dave..............

> -John

by **b..** » Tue, 14 May 2002 23:47:57

We still disagree on that. Waltrip didn't make a move becaus
he didn't trust the guy behind him to follow, rather than just picking
up second if Waltrip pulled out of line. I personally don't like
restrictor plate racing, but that's all that was going on here. The
big question for you is: _Why_ would Waltrip let Jr. win? or _Why_
would he be ordered to?

To show how atrocious Austria was by comparison. F1 does it
for a trivial reason, NASCAR wouldn't do it even when it really
counted, with major bucks and major manufacturer interests directly at
stake.

Your insults only show how weak your intellectual case is.
F1 could learn how to run a race series, rather than being pushed
around by the teams. If something so contrary to the spirit of
competition occurred, the sanctiong body for NASCAR would take serious
action, to represent the fans interest. Didn't someone post how F1
supposedly had banned this practice? Expecting any action?

by **Joachim Trens** » Wed, 15 May 2002 03:56:36

You could also call it a remarkable lack of team spirit, and inconsequence
or even hipocrisy - after all, Rubens just very recently signed a contract
that obliges him to do precisely what he did at Zeltweg (and he's done it
before as well). Apparently Rubens didn't have much m***doubts about it
when he signed the contract...

It all depends on the way you look at it... ;-)

Achim

> > One could argue Rubens makes a big show of it every time - maybe other
> > teammates don't? ;-)

> I'd say it's a quite effective way of showing his displeasure with the
> decision made. Make it obvious as hell, angering as many observers as
> possible at those responsible. Great move by RB. :-) More backbone
> than those who would "fake it" to the end.

> --

> Fester

> Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> 4/15/02

by **Eldre** » Wed, 15 May 2002 01:32:13

>What Ferrari did denied all the Austrian fans of the joy they would have
>experienced if Rubens had won. As stoic as he was during the press
>conference, team orders defeat the purpose of racing. The best man and car
>should win. I hope Ferrari learns from this.

>This is why most Americans will never understand or enjoy F1, all they will
>see is that Shucey was handed the win and didn't earn it.

When McLaren did it, it was because a mixup pit call took Mika out of the lead.
He got called in accidentally, he would have won it anyway without that
mistake. There had been many times where David was leading Mika, and wasn't
asked to pull over.
Bottom line - the team has a number 1 and number 2 driver. They can treat each
one as they see fit. Truthfully, I don't see why there *should* be any FIA
rule to keep teams from doing it. After all, it's THEIR car, THEIR drivers.
It should really only be a team matter/decision.
Now having said that, how can you in good conscience ask a guy to *give up* a
Formula One victory. That's one of the most prestigious accomplishments in
motorsport. If it were the last one or two races, and Michael REALLY needed
the points, then you gotta do it. 5 races into the season, with a 20+ point
lead? I really thought they'd let Rubens enjoy the victory... IMO, that
sucks... :(
For those of you who think MS should have ignored the team orders - how early
was that decision made? If it was only ordered on the last lap, there might
not have been enough time for the drivers to really think it through. If they
had 10 laps to discuss it, maybe MS could have argued on RB's behalf. I agree
that Michael would not have been punished if he disobeyed that order, and let
Rubens take the victory. We just don't know how long the discussion was...

Eldred

--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.

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by **Kyle Robert** » Wed, 15 May 2002 01:37:44

> > "Funny how when Waltrip just sat there and let Earnhardt take the
> > Talladega win, it was just accepted as something that's done all the
> > time."

> > Total BS. It had been shown throughout the whole race that, without
> > help from behind, it was extremely difficult to draft by the leader.

> Please. Everyone saw Waltrip was blocking for Earnhardt and never even
> attempted a pass. Plenty of people in this newsgroup saw the same thing
but
> didn't get offended by it for some reason. Check the "N2002 Drafting
> Accurate?" thread for examples. Both Waltrip and Barichello let their
> teammates win, but in different ways.

Comparing what happened in Austria yesterday and the race at Talladega is a
joke. Did you guys even watch the Talladega race or just using this as
another opportunity to bash the good ole boys? Everyone did not see Waltrip
not attempt to pass. I know what I saw. Ward Burton had a run and tried to
pass when running third with 2 laps to go, no one went with him and he
finished 15th. Hmmm, I wonder why Waltrip didn't try the same move after
that?

Kyle

by **Kyle Robert** » Wed, 15 May 2002 01:39:38

Barrichello.

And where exactly did you get this "Fact"?

Kyle

rec.autos.simulators

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