rec.autos.simulators

To:             IVGA MEMBERSHIP

From:           Don Wilshe

Subject:        PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!

Members:

As you know we here at the IVGA have written over 30,000 lines of C++
code at our expense
in excess of $30,000.  We did this provide integrity to off-line racing
and fastlapping
for Papyrus NASCAR and INDYCAR. We have over 600 people that use the
IVGA software and
we have never had any member accuse a member of cheating.  We have
accomplished our goals.  To
accomplish that goal we had to gather all the information to detect
CHEATING and prevent
it.  

For you that have never read the IVGA OVERVIEW let me regress and lets
review it
and what it says.....

=======================================================================================    
IVGA OVERVIEW

                   "No Friends at 200MPH, Only Fans"

IVGA BRIEF: The IVGA is an organization that was founded on the premise
that video simulation gaming is a BRAINSPORT and recognizes that
individual
can THINK and REACT to the demands of computer simulations. We know it
takes
special mental skills to drive a virtual racing car and have yet to find
any real race car drivers that can run with INTERNETS best.  The IVGA is
the
home of the very serious, hard-core and best drivers in the world.
Unlike
other INTERNET RACING SERIES, the IVGA is a commercial enterprise.  We
use
advanced software technology to provide continuous integrity and
technical
inspection and monitoring of drivers while they are either RACING or
attempting for a world record FASTLAP.  Our goal, like NASCAR, is to
eliminate HACKING by using special software during the entire racing
process.
We will look at and use every piece of information available to the IVGA
software to maintain integrity.  When the NASCAR or INDYCAR software has
fixed it's problems we will delete this code from the IVGA software.

In our series we have no rules for cheating and we have no reprimands,
banishments, threats as its not possible as we monitor the events with
custom technical inspection software.

====================================================================================

In summary, Papyrus has recommended to me:

1).     I send out there information to all IVGA Members!!!

2).     That I suspend the entire IVGA staff from racing in the NRL

        I am the only member that would be suspended as:

        Joe Farr never had access to any information....
        Jim Jannseen only wrote the software and we have talked in 5 months as
he
        is very busy at NETSCAPE..

        All other associate members like Josh Carr, Julain Data arent involved
in the
        racing operation!!!!!!!!!

Once again we are telling all the members of the IVGA that we gather all
information
to insure racing integrity.  But I and only me know the codes that
unlock that
information including setups.  You can believe what you want but I have
never
found a setup in NASCAR fastlap results or race results that helped me
on HAWAII.

People wondered why I was so fast at Michigan and Atlanta..  I blistered
the field
with a setup that is 100% still what I use today and I got that from
Pekka Heino
who has shared his setups with everyone..  Ironically I use the same
setup at
Michigan and Atlanta..  As far as Taladega although I have received lots
and lots
of setps its simple.. 3.5 gear, 60 psi and 100% shocks...  Actually the
World's
Greatest Talaedega driver .. Who used to race with us Charlie Mone gave
me that
setup.  As far as the Setup for Charlotte I forget..  You see as the
President
of the IVGA I get lots and lots of setups.. I guess they feel that since
I am
in this position I should not do the NRL as I get to much information.
And course
thier are all the other tracks..  The Road Course.. I cant even get
around the
tracks.  The 3/4 miles I am the worst..  The 1 miles..  Pretty sad there
as well..

As you know I do not race the FASTLAP or the OFF-LINE racing... As I am
the chief
technical inspector and see all that information I could see a
conflict.  

HAWAII vs NASCAR!!!

I really thought it was ok for me to run in the HAWAII beta testing as
the physics
engines for NASCAR vs. Multi are different.  

Papyrus has asked me not to run in the NRL series, but I will let my
membership
determine that..  I want each of you to vote either that I can or I
cant.. I will
stand by your decision.  If You want me to run, than the next decision
is whether
PAPYRUS and the NRL will allow me to run...  As I stated along time
ago.......

"No Friends at 200mph, only Fans"  

There is still a major problem and that is if I have all the information
and I cant
race than why can People who have the same information that work with
PAPYRUS be
allowed to race,....  I think they call this a DOUBLE STANDARD!!  Or
could it be
away to eliminate a lot of strong competitions for thier BOYS!!!!!!!!!
In the
July 1996 newsletter from Ed Martin to all of us he told us that he
looks at
everything and has everything..  WHATS THE DIFF??????????????????????

Sincerely,

Don Wilshe, IVGA

====================================================================================

On 18 Nov 96 10:29:55  Dave_Matson/Papyrus.PAPY...@papy.com wrote:

read more »

you people SERIOUSLY need to get a life

etc.etc.

                                                ~G

Well, Don, since you made this public, let's examine the evidence.

First, here is Dave Matson's e-mail to you:

                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now, here's what you posted in reply on r.a.s.:

shooting through ***space:

Okay.  Let me address this point by point.

A) DOUBLE STANDARD -- You accuse Papyrus of playing a double standard
by being "allowed to race," when Dave clearly states that Papyrus
employees directly involved with the "information" are not allowed to
compete.  On the other hand, you have direct access to the
"information," and you compete freely.  I am NOT accusing you of
cheating -- merely pointing out that the double standard appears to
be, in the context of these messages, in your camp.

B) SANCTIONING BODY vs. COMPETITOR -- Your goal has been to make the
IVGA the premier Internet racing league in the world, with the fastest
and "best" drivers around.  With this in mind, you are clearly in an
administrative capacity.  There should be a clear separation between
those who compile the results and those who generate them (i.e. the
drivers).  It's akin to having Bill France and Gary Nelson owning and
operating a race team -- who would police the police?  Again, this is
not an accusation, merely a philosophical point.

C) THE APPEARANCE OF EVIL -- If people don't like what they see, there
is little you can do to dissuade them from their opinions.  For
example, if a guy was sitting at a table with a small mirror covered
in white powder and was sucking it up his nose, people would think,
"This guy's doing ***."  It doesn't matter if the powder turned
out to be flour or something -- people took it as face value.  Same
with your situation -- people see that you have codes to unlock other
people's setups.  If you were in purely an administrative capacity,
there would be no problem -- but you continue to compete, which leads
people to think that you have an advantage.

Now look, Don, I've posted the above PURELY as a response to the
discrepancy I see in your complaint against Papyrus and their
response.  No malice, no accusations.  Just some common sense.  I
suggest you sit down and consider Papyrus' viewpoint from somewhere
else than the IVGA director's chair.

Thanks,
Tony
--

SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS

To Julian Data, Julian I retract my appolgy in regards to
the setups being loaded to IVGA reps. Obviously, what I had
heard was correct. The fact that you asked those involved
if it was true on my behalf and they told you it was BS.
Obviously says very little about your relationship with them.
As you must have been mislead as well! The fact you indicated
that setups were being shared takes on new significance now!

Pete

read more »

Relax Don, by the time the NRL actually gets started everyone will have
had ample time (a few months) to develop competitive setups.

--

Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

:>To:             IVGA MEMBERSHIP
:>
:>From:           Don Wilshe
:>
:>Subject:        PAPYRUS advises Don Wilshe and the IVGA!!!!
:>

As everyone that monitors this newsgroup knows, there is absolutely no love
lost between me and Don.  But I have to say that I don't care if Don races in
NRL.  I can't admit to knowing exactly what has transpired between him and
Papyrus, but I don't see the pooint in banning him from competition.  That
would be like telling Jeff Gordon that he can't run in Winston Cup next season
because he's too good a driver.

Again, I' not supporting Don specifically, but everybody's right to compete if
they fill out the form and pay their fee.

/===================================================\
| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker)               |

| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html   |
\===================================================/

shooting through ***space:

Well, as a previous beta tester for Papyrus, let me explain a little
of the mindset behind having beta testers at all.

When I was beta-testing NASCAR 1 (I can tell you this because the NDA
should be over for it.. <G>), we only got builds once they had been
thoroughly tested by the Papyrus staff.  For instance, if we had, say,
Beta 4, they would be on beta 9.  We were basically the "last ditch
filter" to catch bugs and omissions in the software; occasionally, we
were allowed to pitch ideas for inclusion in the simulator to make it
more realistic.  But anyone who has ever coded anything knows why they
need beta-testing -- because after spending so long with the software,
you need someone with a fresh viewpoint.  And really that's all we
were (heaven knows we didn't catch all the bugs.. :-/)

As far as the NDA, Papyrus and other companies have features that are
not "secret" persay, but that they do not want released until they are
ready to do so.  The NDA makes sure that Papyrus is the one who lets
people know about the new features in its software, and that the
software won't get out until Papyrus distributes it.  Again, as beta
testers we did not get any "priviledged information" that enhanced or
detracted from our *** experience -- our function was to act as
"the general public" for feedback before the actual general release.
What good would a beta-tester be if he/she had information that gave
him/her an advantage over the rest of the target audience?

Trust me, at times on Hawaii I WISH I had been fed "tricks" from
Papyrus, especially in big points races... <G>

[SNIP]

You are correct -- the N2 beta testers will most likely have an
advantage because of the hours spent testing.  However, as a former
beta tester, I can say I did not spend time trying to come up with
killer setups -- I spent time trying to break the simulator, which is
what Papyrus asked me to do.  Yes, I had more hours on the tracks than
others.  But they weren't in practice for quals or racing --
consequently, I am of the opinion that they did me no good at all in
regards to competition.

[SNIP]

I think Dave's point was mainly that MULTI 1.36 and NASCAR 1.21 have a
similar physics architecture.  It's widely known that a standard
NASCAR setup, with a small cross-weight change, is portable to Hawaii.
That's the big issue right now.  I don't see how either Papyrus or
IVGA can comment on NRL using NASCAR 2.0, since the product isn't even
released yet.  As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there
aren't any outside of Papyrus' Watertown, MA headquarters.

[SNIP]

I doubt it will.  I think I needed those examples to clarify the
situation a bit.
--

SimRacing Online Webmaster
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Hawaii: IWCCCARS

Take two. (Sorry Tony)<G>

Well ladies and Gentlemen.

     I had writen an earlier letter that I thought was going to be
posted. Instead Tony received and I think he figured I was attacking
him.

I am a Hawaii driver who runs in the Pro Hcs. Most of the drivers who
run in the Pro Hcs are beta testers or employees of Papyrus.
As far as advantages go, I think the only advantage the beta testers
get is time. Big deal. I over came that obstical once I could do it
again. I don't even care if Matt Sentell participated in the NRL.
I would never want to claim to be the best if I was only racing hand
picked oppenents. Thats a cheap victory.

You see I have spent the last 6 months busting my ***to be as good as
I can come race day. I stay up late at night, and work many hours on my
setups. I test and test and test more. I have spent over $2,500.00 in
phone bills competing and practicing so I would be sure to make the top
NRL

Now I find out that all this is for nothing. I am being told that by
the fact that I am associated with Don Wilshe and the IVGA, I will not
be able to compete in the NRL. I have never been a roll player in the
IVGA management. I have never had access to the software codes. I have
never taken any setups! I simply run AOL CSNC and had worked on the
developement of the Pro Wheel II. Oh ya. My name was on the web page.
Good reason to kick some one out of NRL!!

But I am glad this happened. I can now honestly say that I will totaly
be satisfied without running NRL. I would rather be a little fish in a
big pond than a big fish in a little pond. And at the rate this is
going NRL won't have much competition.

Good Luck
Alec A. Flory

Gentlemen: Nascar has more then one class. Locally we have a nascar 1/2
mile track that only local drivers run on. One of our local drivers even
went to the big leagues (Joe Frasson). I suggest you create a dozen or more
classes using whatever tracks you want and make the SIM-drivers work their
way to Grand National. Remember, there are no prizes, no money and no
trophies mailed to the winners (and hell, if I won my wife wouldn't even
kiss me let alone some babe in bathing suit). All you get is your name
posted on a bunch of servers, oh wow. There has to be rules but the rules
in real Nascar are for safety (like restrictor plates) and so far I haven't

80 degrees angle. Hell, your cars don't even roll over and they don't have
the air foils that are on the real cars to help prevent that. (I've never
seen them anyways.) Bottom line:
IT'S JUST A GAME SO CUT THIS "MY DAD CAN BEAT YOUR DAD" ***OUT!!!!

I totally agree that PAPYRUS is doing the right thing almost, except in
reference to beta testers..  Beta Testers have lots of advantages:

Adam
Papyrus

You know that and I know that.. I just wish that someone would post that
so everyone knew that....

PAPYRUS has already made thier decision and asked the IVGA and its staff
of 20 hard core multi 1.36 drivers not to participate..  If you dont see
your friends on NRL... You will know what happened to them...

  As far as beta-testers for NRL, to my knowledge there

Sorry.... WRONG>..  They still have thier full set of beta testers
Rhawn Black, Nim Cross, etc ,etc.  They are gaining knowledege and
we will be racing for money in the NRL and we are all setting in
the garage.....  ITS AINT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would like to publically apologize to you.  I am sorry that I ever
tried to help AMERCIAN ON-LINE NASCAR AND INDYCAR racing leagues.  As
you know the off-line racing of NASCAR has lots and lots of problems.
When you accepted the IVGA software I never thought it would disqualify
you as a racer.. We at the IVGA we very please to receive those great
comments from CYPERSPORTS of AOL that we had restored INTEGRITY to
NASCAR OFF-LINE racing, but now I wonder if helping over 700 drivers use
our software in 14 NASCAR and INDYCAR Racing leagues was worth it... Not
if it cost you a starting position in the NRL....

I wish I could send you the $2500.00 as you have been unfairly damaged.
I myself have spent over $4000 on racing and have close to 1000 races on
HAWAII.  Now Dave Matson and Ed Martin wants me to disqualify myself
because I have to much knowledege about NASCAR 1.21.  That has nothing
to do with MUTLI 1.36 and its not even remote connected to NASCAR 2.0.
Its just an excuse to get rid of competition so thier FACTORY RACING
TEAM can dominate the NRL.

They dont give me any credit for the 1000 races, the two years of hard
work and racing in off-line racing leagues since day one..  They dont
even think that maybe someone of my 2600 drivers might have sent a setup
or two.  I wish I could grow up someday and be a PRO HCS driver and have
always done everything 100% myself and have never receieved information
from anyone and only and always did it for myself..  As you see I cant
live in a bubble...

The Worlds Fastest Driver at the IVGA is JOE FARR.  Joe Farr had
no access to the SETUP information and did not know anything about
validation.  Joe Farr holds virtualy ever FASTLAP record at the
IVGA.  Joe Farr's SETUP's are all publish in the IVGA PUBLICATIONS
section.  

SURGEON GENERAL WARNING MESSAGE #1:

If you use the publish setups that Joe Farr has in the IVGA publications
track guide section you may be expelled from the NRL...

SURGEON GENERAL WARNING MESSAGE #2:

2600 IVGA Members, If you are a member of IVGA you could lose your right
to participate in the NRL...

Don Wilshe, IVGA

PS.     For the Record I have never sent any setups to Alec Flory!!