rec.autos.simulators

by **J. Janaso** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 10:46:03

Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem to
slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in the
axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake really
hard the AI rams into me.

Thanks
J. Janasov

by **ymenar** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 11:55:20

> Any tips for not locking up the brakes?

You can increase you braking power into a corner as you slow down (don't
stay at the same braking spot).

Perhaps your calibration is not perfect, and you brake at only 95% of it.
Many of us leave a dead spot when we calibrate for both the gas and the
brake just to make sure that when they are fully pressed you are at 100%.

Oh, well engine braking is really something important in GPL. Learning to
use it correctly will help a lot.

Oh that must be Surtees at Monza <G>

One last tip, you can tweak your pedals and insert a squash pedal behind the
brake pedal.

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by **Jesse Blac** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:31:59

If saving my motor is not an issue, then I downshift very early in the brake
zone...almost immediately after I start braking, I downshift however many
gears I need to go for the turn. This may upset the car at first, but once
you get to that gear for the turn, it will help the car slow down, and it
will give the car time to get balanced in that gear so your turn in will be
smoother. I start my braking by pushing *** the pedal (just about to
the floor) to build up braking force quickly, and then I let back a little
bit and keep it on the limit of tire squeel. There is a pretty big margin
of tire squeel before a tire will lockup, but if you are in doubt, use less
brakes. The car may not SOUND like it is stopping quickly if you aren't
getting full squeel on all tires, but it will stop really fast at this
state...I have arrived at corners going slower than I wanted to, even though
it seemed like I was going to overcook it from using not enough brakes.
Either way, try to keep some squeel and if you lockup a front tire, don't
worry about it. If it is the inside front (right front tire in a right hand
turn) then just try to back off the brakes a little bit to get the tire
rolling. If that inside front tire does what I call a "soft lock" where it
locks then starts rolling slowly, then locks again and so on, then you are
fine. It will keep the car balanced on corner entry and it is a good way to
make sure you aren't using too much or too little brakes. If the tire does
a hard lock (It locks up and stays locked and there is a dark black tire
mark in your mirrors behind you) then you need to back off the brakes a good
bit and then reapply...if you get a hard lock, the car won't turn
well...with a soft lock, the car will turn at just about the same rate as
when it isn't locked. This is all pretty advanced and you should gradually
work your way up to it...it is tougher to do when you have a spring with
little tension on your brake...My TSW brake pedal is very firm and allows me
to modulate those tiny bits very easily. Also about brake bias...if you
have separate axis, I would recommend 53% bias. Under brakes, the car
shouldn't get out of shape, but if it begins to wobble a bit (maybe the car
wasn't balanced when you entered the brake zone) then you can give it a
small stab at the gas. Anything less than 53% and you will have to put on
some gas all the way through the brake zone...and that gets kinda
inconsistent. So I would recommend 53% and maybe 54% if you are having
trouble keeping the car straight. The lower the brake bias, the easier it
will be to get a soft lock...with the higher biases, that front tire will
most likely be spinning or be in a hard locked state...which is no fun.

But like I said earlier, if you are ever questioning how much brake to use,
use less...getting into locking the tires will help you gauge how much of
the brakes you are using, but you may not be slowing down at the optimal
rate...eventually you will get consistent with a soft lock and then you can
play around in that general area of the brake travel to optimize your
braking...

BTW, watch the world record replay of Greger Huttu at nurburgring...in that
whole first section of slow corners he has a ton of soft locks...so if you
are interested in seeing it done very well, watch his replay. You could
probably get it here:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~gplhotlaps/index.html

Well thats enough for me...hope you like what I wrote...if you have any

Jesse Black
North American Racing
Thomas Superwheels
GPLRank Handicap -53.31 and dropping

by **Laurence Wilme** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:44:57

All very helpful, as I also have clearly identified that efficient
braking is my weak point. Partly because I haven't found anything
suitable to wedge under my T2 pedal, mainly because my reactions and
left foot control are just not good enough!
The compromises I am trying are
1) pump the brake pedal around the critical point
2) full brake and add a little throttle to try to stop it locking
(single axis)
- are these very bad ideas?
--
Laurence Wilmer

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by **Beckett Richard-qswi2** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:11:23

You must know the trick about putting half a squash ball under the brake
pedal, then recalibrating?

Make sure you brake as hard as you can when you calibrate it.

R.

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by **Kevin Clar** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:58:54

> Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem to
> slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
> using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in the
> axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake really
> hard the AI rams into me.

> Thanks
> J. Janasov

Cut a squash ball in half or get some wads of paper and wrap them in
tape and stick it under your brake pedal.
Calibrate the brakes to maximum pedal travel then stick the ball or
paper underneath. You have to experiment a bit but you'll find now that
when you brake, the pedal only travels about 95% of the distance so you
get virtually max braking but without locking up.

Kev

by **Ville V Sinkk** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:05:12

>> Any tips for not locking up the brakes?
> You can increase you braking power into a corner as you slow down (don't
> stay at the same braking spot).

There's also the mysterious and esoteric braking-by-turning-the-front-wheels
technique that some of the really fast guys are said to use. I once
accidentally saved my ass at Nouveau Monde with it. :) But with the
exception of the Station hairpin, I've never learned to actually _do_ it.

+Cinquo [GPLRank 19.xx]

by **Thomas Soerensen** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:21:48

This squash ball trick. I have heard about it for years now, but I still
cannot picture it properly in my head. Could some kind soul give me a
step-by-step guide on how to implement this trick to my Act Labs pedals?

I will go and buy a squash ball this afternoon

Thanks in advance
Thomas
Rank just under +50 and dropping

> > Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem
to
> > slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
> > using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in
the
> > axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake
really
> > hard the AI rams into me.

> > Thanks
> > J. Janasov

> Cut a squash ball in half or get some wads of paper and wrap them in
> tape and stick it under your brake pedal.
> Calibrate the brakes to maximum pedal travel then stick the ball or
> paper underneath. You have to experiment a bit but you'll find now that
> when you brake, the pedal only travels about 95% of the distance so you
> get virtually max braking but without locking up.

> Kev

by **Simon Brow** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:08:57

If the brakes are locking, you are pressing the pedal too hard. You need to
gently squeeze the brakes. Drive in socks also.

by **J. Janaso** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:21:35

Thanks for all the ideas group, I'll give em a shot!

J. Janasov

> If the brakes are locking, you are pressing the pedal too hard. You need
to
> gently squeeze the brakes. Drive in socks also.

> > Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem
> to
> > slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
> > using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in
the
> > axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake
> really
> > hard the AI rams into me.

> > Thanks
> > J. Janasov

by **Kevin Clar** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:56:32

Just like I said.
Calibrate the pedal to maximum, cut the ball in half (or as I do, use
blocks of paper - good cos you can add more or less to get the right
braking amount), put it under the brake pedal so the pedal now only goes
down 90-odd% of the way. So, when you're in GPL and you brake, the car
only gets 90-odd% of maximum braking and the wheels don't lock. Well,
sometimes they do but only right at the end of very hard fast braking
and then only slightly.
You may think that 90% is not enough to stop but it is. No problem. 100%
calibrated braking is waaaaaay too much and locks the wheels most of the
time. Locked wheels = no control = crashes.

Kev

by **Ian Rich** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:24:50

On Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:46:03 -0400, "J. Janasov"

>Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem to
>slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
>using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in the
>axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake really
>hard the AI rams into me.

>Thanks
>J. Janasov

Due to an enforced furtinute and room layout change**, I can no longer
use the pedals with my wheel.

I use a couple of analog paddles on the back of the wheel instead.

After an initial "adjustment period" (oohh - look - track, sky, track,
sky, track, sky, fire.) I am finding controlling the braking much
better with these.

It may be the cheap'n'*** pedals for my TM wheel, which have very
little travel, or the fact my hands are more of a "precision"
instrument than my feet, but since I made the change i found that I
have been able to brake much more reliably!

Does ruin the immersion a bit though.

Ian

**Change necessary due to adverse effects of small child on expensive
computer equipment. These mix about as well as water and sodium.
--
Ian Riches
GPL Rank +6.19 Monsters of GPL +326.93

by **Bart Westr** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:08:57

The idea of the squash ball is that in the last part of the brake pedal
travel you get progressively more resistance. So this resistance will tell
you how close you are to full braking. This technique mimics to some extent
a real brake pedal, which is pressure sensitive. Our simulated brakes are
travel sensitive (except one very expensive ECCI), and this is what makes it
so hard to control the brakes: your feet have no idea how far the pedal is
depressed, so you have to rely entirely on the audio/visual feed back like
tyre squeal and blocking. The squash ball gives you some direct feedback
from the pedal.
On my MSFF, all I needed to do was cut the ball in half and place it under
the brake pedal. It stayes put without any tapeing :) On the Act Labs you
may have to secure it. What you aim for is that the squash ball restricts
the last part of the pedal travel. After you have placed it, re-calibrate in
GPL. Just push the pedal firmly like you would like to push it in the race
to get 100% percent braking. You will get a slighly shorter range for the
pedal value.

Bart Westra

by **Thom j** » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 23:40:40

Jesse, Quick question/comment, I too prefer 53-54% bias and many
of Chris Moses setups work well at 55%. I have all Huttu's setups &
apprantly he uses a 51% or at most 52%. In braking with his setup I
find this is where I run into hard'lock & smooth stopping problems!!
Question I guess, How in the "H" does he do this and not hardlock?
Or should this be directed to Mr Huttu??...lol Tia.. Anyone!!

<snipped>
| I would recommend 53% bias. Under brakes, the car
| shouldn't get out of shape, but if it begins to wobble a bit (maybe the
car
| wasn't balanced when you entered the brake zone) then you can give it a
| small stab at the gas. Anything less than 53% and you will have to put on
| some gas all the way through the brake zone...and that gets kinda
| inconsistent. So I would recommend 53% and maybe 54% if you are having
| trouble keeping the car straight. The lower the brake bias, the easier it
| will be to get a soft lock...with the higher biases, that front tire will
| most likely be spinning or be in a hard locked state...which is no fun.
<snipped>
| BTW, watch the world record replay of Greger Huttu at nurburgring...in
that
| whole first section of slow corners he has a ton of soft locks...so if you
| are interested in seeing it done very well, watch his replay. You could
| probably get it here:
|
| http://www.mycgiserver.com/~gplhotlaps/index.html
|
| Well thats enough for me...hope you like what I wrote...if you have any

|
| Jesse Black
| North American Racing
| Thomas Superwheels
| GPLRank Handicap -53.31 and dropping

| > Any tips for not locking up the brakes? I watch replays and people seem
| to
| > slow very fast without any lockups? Is it a downshift/brake combo? I'm
| > using a TM Pro 2 if anyone else is where do you have the sliders at in
the
| > axis setup? I just can't seem to get a smooth slowdown. If I brake
| really
| > hard the AI rams into me.
| >
| > Thanks
| > J. Janasov
| >
| >
| >
|
|

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by **REDLINE42** » Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:14:27

I agree with using the wheel paddles. I've set some of my best times in GPL
with a TM GP-1 wheel. Unfortunately the cable for the wheel controls has a
open and needs to be replaced, (Haven't found a suitable cable replacement).
Damn SuperBike wheel beating racing!

In braking with the pedals on the same axis I find that using throttle and
brake together gives good results. Some corners I leave the throttle to the
floor, or almost to the floor, and use brake/downshifting to keep the
Ferrari on the track. This method also works very well in SuperBike racing
to keep your lean angle stable.

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