rec.autos.simulators

All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both
feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake?

I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, but
I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned to
brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal!

In the interest of maintaining historical accuracy, does anyone know if the
GP drivers of the era used the left foot for braking since they apparently
used synchronous "bang-boxes" which didn't require use of the clutch pedal?
My wife got the movie "Grand Prix" for me for Christmas. I guess I'll have
to go back and study the quick shots of the footwork as Garner tries to
overcome his gearbox troubles at Monaco!

If you've switched from using one foot to two, how's it affected your lap
times? An are you using combined or split axis pedals?

Thanks for your feedback!

P.S. Incidentally, www.blockbuster.com has some great racing videos
available for next to nothing. I got a great hour long video on an early
90's Monaco GP for something like US$8-9. A steal, I thought! Try searching
their on the phrase "Grand Prix".

They did, like now, sometimes to get the front wheels back "down" :)But
not for "serious" braking (slowing down)

I switched when I got N2, since I started with the keyboard, I developed
a (bad?) habit of  "left-finger" braking, and the technique transferred
beautifully to my T2 when i Split the Axis.

Cheers, Good luck!

Matthew Knutsen
The Art of Legends
http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/simrace1.htm

In F1 most of the drivers left foot brake too so this is actually a
realistic technique, also when racing Karts at a local track I found
that I could balance the throttle and left foot brake very effectively
in a similar way to what I do in GPL, I think my GPL practice applies
well to karts in real life (tm), also so far I've had no problems driving
my normal real life clutch car with heel-toe technique (haven't had any
impulse to try to brake with left foot).

Give it a try if you haven't, it actually feels very natural and personally
I think it does improve lap times.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

I know form reading books from Niki Lauda and Jackie Stewart, they mention
they did not left foot brake.  They would blip the throttle with the edge
of one foot while braking with the same foot.  I do a similar thing when
autocrossing, if I have to downshift and brake at the same time, if I don't
have to drop down a gear i left foot brake in my real car.  As for sims I
have always left foot braked, being it is quicker.  I do not like some have
split axis pedals tho.

Dave

I'm not posting incredible lap times (yet) but from my experience of Formula
Renaults, heel-and-toe is used to "blip" not trail brake. You can trail brake
with either left or right foot braking.

brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal!<<

In GPL I prefer to left foot brake. I tired using my right foot, but the only
reason I didn't like that was because it was too uncomfortable with the pedal I
use. However, in the short time I've been driving on the road, I prefered to
use right foot braking in the Saab (an automatic) but in my present car (the
awful Ford - Galaxy, also an automatic) I find my self using the left foot for
braking. I don't know why, but I have no prblem changing which foot I use to
brake from Karting to Sim Racing to driving on teh road. It's probably because
I play the drums :o)

Anyway, as for what they did 'back then' I think they would have used right
foot braking. I saw Channel 4's "Stirling Moss Night" when the had Stirling
drive around Donnington Park in an old "Cooper" (??) and his feet were all over
the place! It was magic! :o)

I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) the didn't use the clutch when baging up the
gears, but when braking and down-shifting, they use the clutch to "blip" the
throttle. Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double
declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still...

Hope this helps :o)

Rob
Eleve Winfield 1998

First I need to get a split axis wheel/peddle set (or modify my T2).

Dave Ewing

I brake with the left foot, even though I have a combined gas/brake T2
controller.

I 'think' the amount of time to switch from gas to brake and back (with 1 foot)
is taking 1/10ths of a second off your laps times on each transition.  Besides,
doesn't your foot get tired? :)

Seriously, when switch pedals with 1 foot there is a small period of time when
no gas or brake is being applied.  This will make the car unstable (to a
degree).

Even with combined axis controllers, I think left foot braking is good because
you can quickly brake and/or gas when required.  Now keep in mind with a
combined gas/brake controller left foot braking is more like left foot
'slowing' until you release the gas pedal; however, this does produce a very
smooth transition between accellerating and decellerating that will improve
your times.

I started left foot 'slowing' in Nascar and never went back to using 1 foot.

NP :)
------
Jason Monds
"My other car is a Ferrari"
http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my non trail-braking setups
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

You're saying that they use/used the left foot for just attitude adjustments
and right foot braking otherwise? Sounds like it requires a lot of
premeditation rather than being instinctual. I guess that's why they're
driving/drove F1 and I'm driving GPL! ;-)

If a car requires that you declutch to downshift, you will have to use some
variation of heel-and-toe to simultaneously brake and downshift just prior
to a trail braking manuever. If you're busy braking and blipping the
throttle for your downshifts, it's not likely that  you'd suddenly switch
from the right foot to the left for trail braking. In other words, you'll
have to use the right foot if any downshifting's required prior to a corner
where you intend to employ trail braking, assuming your car requires
declutching. Did your Formula Renault require that you declutch to
downshift?

Must be. I don't seem to have much modulation in my left foot yet. I guess
I'll acquire some over time.

Here's "double-declutching" (a.k.a "double-clutching") step-by-step:

1. Depress clutch
2. Disengage 4th gear (for example) by moving shifter to neutral position
3. Release clutch
4. Blip throttle to bring rotational velocity of drivetrain up. This is done
with the either the heel or the right edge of the foot while standing on the
brake (hence, heel-and-toe). Blipping the throttle with the clutch depressed
fails to get all the required elements of the drivetarin up to speed.
5. Depress clutch
6. Engage third gear
7. Release clutch.

Steps 5-7 must be done very quickly so that the rotational velocity of the
drivetrain continues to match road speed. That's what makes for all the
"magic." Imagine going through these gyrations through several gears for a
long straight terminated by a hairpin, while braking at the absolute limit
of adhesion! I had the good fortune of seeing the F1 guys do just that at
Long Beach a couple of times in the 70's. It was amazing!

So may question remains, did they use the clutch to downshift in 67 or not?
And what about contemporary F1 cars?

Yeah, but since GPL is focused on being realistic and historically accurate,
I think left foot braking on a combined axis setup detracts from the realism
because of the interaction of the brake and throttle pedals, just as you
described.

And if the cars in '67 required declutching to downshift, I think left foot
braking for any turn that requires downshifting also detracts from the
realism. It gets back to the simulation v. arcade issue, I guess.

Thanks for your comments!

Driving GPL is just like go-karts, no clutch to worry about!

Keep racing!

Matt Knutsen

I race on a modified split-axis T2 myself, if you are handy with a
soldering iron and multimeter it isn't too terribly hard to do, I modified
mine in preparation for the release of GPL and find it worth the trouble.

BTW Dave, that's a nice site, gets me even more antsy for the start of F1
season, thank god this year we have GPL to keep us entertained during the
long cold months of the racing offseason.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

I also left foot brake, not so much from comfort reasons as because it
allows me to a) apply brake against throttle or vice-versa (that is
often the best and most stable way around a corner or to balance the
car) and b) because it eliminates however many tenths or hundredths of
a second it takes you to move your foot from gas to brake and back
again. However long that time is I will pick up that much time twice
for every corner on the track (once getting on the brake and once
getting back on the gas).

Maybe! I also used to play drums and quite naturally change between
left-foot braking (sims, karting, any automatic car while travelling
abroad) and right foot braking (manual cars in the UK). There is no
adjustment, either way just feels okay. What I can't do is left foot
brake in a manual car - for some reason when I try it I can't get the
sensitivity right immediately and my first couple of tries have me
peeling my face of the windscreen :-)

Simply as it sounds - declutching once to move from gear to neutral,
then depressing the clutch again to slip into the lower gear. It
was/is primarily for non-syncromesh 'boxes, and in fact you may still
find some road cars today where this is a "feature". Even in newer
cars the reverse may not be syncro so you have to lift the clutch and
depress it again before selecting reverse rather than just doing so
directly. In a syncromesh 'box you have "syncronisers" which do the
work for you, but in a non-syncro box you first "shift" into neutral,
then you "blip" the throttle (to match your engine speed with the
rotational speed of your wheels in the gear you are about to select)
before finally "shifting" again into the lower gear. On the way up
through the 'box you needn't do this since there is no need to realign
the engine speed and the wheel's road speed - the engine needs to turn
more slowly for the higher gear you are about to select and the actof
backing of the throttle for the shift accomplishes that for you - in
fact if you blipped you would more than likely create a problem where
none would have existed. With a little (a lot?!) of practice and a
sensitive ear and ***you can upshift without the clutch, since when
you back off the throttle as the revs fall away the road speeds match
and at that point you can shift without the clutch. The timing depends
upon how closely your gears are spaced. Not having much money in the
days when I raced I decided not to do this after some experimentation.
It may be a shade faster (arguably, I didn't see a huge difference)
but it can get a bit expensive if you get it wrong....

Cheers!
John

Actually that same technique also causes people to think Michael is
going into corners flat (and faster than everyone else) whereas in
fact he is gently braking against full throttle (although probably
still faster than everyone else!) :-)

Cheers!
John

Hmm, buy a wheel with a clutch and use the clutch when you downshift.  Arcade
would (to me) mean you can't use a clutch, which u can if u have the money for a
wheel with a real clutch.  Also what about a great deal of the ppl using buttons
instead of a stick shift.  Does that make it arcade?  Some of this just is up to
how much money you are willing to spend.

Oh yeah, how many cars does Lotus make?  75% of online race fields are fielded
by Lotus!  Talk about arcade.  <sarcasitic tone> ;-)
Although it would be cool if u had to earn your ride...next time I hope; there I
am pleading with the BRM team insisting that I'm better than that.

--

Jon   Van Ginneken

"I wrestled with an alligator, tussled with a whale,
handcuffed lightning, threw thunder in jail...I'm a bad dude."

                        - Muhammad Ali