rec.autos.simulators

GPL - Both Feet?

Paul Jone

GPL - Both Feet?

by Paul Jone » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00


> >Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double
> >declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still...

> Here's "double-declutching" (a.k.a "double-clutching") step-by-step:

> 1. Depress clutch
> 2. Disengage 4th gear (for example) by moving shifter to neutral position
> 3. Release clutch
> 4. Blip throttle to bring rotational velocity of drivetrain up. This is done
> with the either the heel or the right edge of the foot while standing on the
> brake (hence, heel-and-toe). Blipping the throttle with the clutch depressed
> fails to get all the required elements of the drivetarin up to speed.
> 5. Depress clutch
> 6. Engage third gear
> 7. Release clutch.

> Steps 5-7 must be done very quickly so that the rotational velocity of the
> drivetrain continues to match road speed. That's what makes for all the
> "magic."

When I was a kid, my Mum had an old Morris that required double declutching.
She's quite the master of it and explained it to me as much the same as you've
described. I think it was quite common place in ordinary road cars in those days
(quite a bit before 1967 this was) together with a crank handle to start the
thing (no starter motor either),
Paul
Anssi Lehtin

GPL - Both Feet?

by Anssi Lehtin » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00



> Question for all you GPL hotshoes:

> All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both
> feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake?

My time at the Glen with the Lotus is 1:05:77, so it's not quite as
incredible as the times at the hotlaps site, but here goes.

I use my left foot for braking, and couldn't imagine doing it any other
way, even though I've driven manual transmission cars exclusively (for 5
years now). It just seems so much more effective.

--
Anssi Lehtinen

Anssi Lehtin

GPL - Both Feet?

by Anssi Lehtin » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00



> In F1 most of the drivers left foot brake too so this is actually a
> realistic technique, also when racing Karts at a local track I found
> that I could balance the throttle and left foot brake very effectively
> in a similar way to what I do in GPL, I think my GPL practice applies
> well to karts in real life (tm), also so far I've had no problems driving
> my normal real life clutch car with heel-toe technique (haven't had any
> impulse to try to brake with left foot).

Talking about Real Life(tm), heel-and-to is a *** when you have size
12.5 Camel boots and a Nissan Sunny. I'm halfway to pressing all of the
three pedals at once when I stomp my foot in there :) Good thing
heel-and-toe is just for fun in these circumstances.

--
Anssi Lehtinen

Jack

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jack » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00



I meant that if one was seeking maximum authenticity, one would have to
avoid left foot braking if the cars of the era required declutching before
downshifting.

Absolutely. Wouldn't a competition that required all that be challenging and
interesting!

Graeme Nas

GPL - Both Feet?

by Graeme Nas » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00

My best at the Glen (since that is an example use din this thread) is
1m04.37s. I have a Thrustmaster "Formula 1" wheel on split axes and I
left-foot brake. I find it much easier than with just ol' righty.

And I will demonstrate my sheer ignorance by telling you that I'm not
even sure what heel-and-toe is :-)

Cheers!
--
Graeme Nash


http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk

ICQ# 11257824

"I could sleep next to a pneumatic drill....... If it was turned off"

Ferdinand Trauttmansdor

GPL - Both Feet?

by Ferdinand Trauttmansdor » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00


>> All you guys posting these incredible GPL times...Are you driving with both
>> feet or are you using heel-and-toe to trail brake?

>> I've managed to get my time down to 1:07.30 in the Eagle at The Glen, but
>> I'm still using one foot. As an old sports car racer, I never learned to
>> brake with my left foot because it was always busy with the clutch pedal!

>I use my left foot for braking, and couldn't imagine doing it any other
>way, even though I've driven manual transmission cars exclusively (for 5
>years now). It just seems so much more effective.

One of the best illustrations of left foot braking I can remember ever
seeing on television was during (believe it or not) a NASCAR race!  It
was during the Watkins Glen event and they had a camera installed in
the footwell of (was it Ricky Rudd???)'s car showing the amazing
ballet of his busy footwork on the pedals.  The "foot-cam" images were
displayed in a small box superimposed in the corner of the regular tv
view which showed the car's progress from trackside cameras.

At top speed at the end of the long straight, well before lifting off
the throttle, he would first reach over with his left foot to
tentatively pump the brake pedal a couple of times just to assure
himself the brakes would function.  Upon reaching his braking point,
the right foot came off the throttle and went deep into the brakes as
the left foot switched to the clutch pedal.  While the left foot
worked the clutch pedal, the right foot simultaneously braked and
rolled onto the throttle to blip the revs as he worked down through
the gearbox braking hard into the corner.

Then, as he bent the car into the apex of the long turn, his right
foot would come off the brake pedal and slide back fully onto the
throttle.  At the same time, while staying full on the throttle, his
left foot modulated the brake pedal to stabilise the car through the
apex to the exit of the corner.  Then it was back up through the gears
until the next corner...

I used to think NASCAR drivers only knew how to turn left.  But
watching that display gave me a entirely new respect for what they do
with those big cars.

        -Ferdinand-

Ferdinand Trauttmansdor

GPL - Both Feet?

by Ferdinand Trauttmansdor » Wed, 06 Jan 1999 04:00:00


>>Yes, now I'm thinking I've definatly heard of the term "double
>>declutching" used from those days :o) No idea what it is, but still...

>Simply as it sounds - declutching once to move from gear to neutral,
>then depressing the clutch again to slip into the lower gear.  It
>was/is primarily for non-syncromesh 'boxes, ...

That sounds correct, but this next bit is quite wrong...

It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that
it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into
reverse.

With the vehicle stopped, engine running at idle, transmission in any
forward gear (let's say first gear), and clutch pedal depressed, the
engine is disconnected (by the clutch) from the transmission's input
shaft.  At the other end, the transmission's output shaft, linked to
the drivewheels, is not revolving because the vehicle is stopped.  The
output gear (first gear) is locked to the output shaft via the
syncromesh gear dogs.  The heavy lower countershaft, permanently
meshed with each of the output gears, is also stationary as it is
linked to the stationary first gear and output shaft.  The
transmission input shaft is linked to the lower countershaft,
therefore it too is stationary.  With nothing rotating in the gearbox,
and clutch depressed, it should be possible to shift from any gear
into any other gear including reverse with no risk whatsoever of
grinding gears.

Now try momentarily letting the clutch up in neutral before again
trying to select reverse.

With the car stopped, engine running at idle, transmission in NEUTRAL,
and clutch pedal LIFTED, the engine is driving the transmission's
input shaft which in turn is spinning the heavy lower countershaft
splashing oil up onto all the gears.  The countershaft is constantly
meshed with (and thus spinning) each of the output gears.  The output
gears are each spinning freely (disconnected in neutral) on the output
shaft.  Only the output shaft is stationary as the car is stopped.

When you next depress the clutch, the heavy countershaft will continue
to spin for some time depending on the viscosity of the gearbox oil.
If the oil is cold and thick, the gears will come to a rapid stop.
But if the oil is hot and thin, the gears will continue to spin for
quite a while even though the engine is no longer driving them once
you depress the clutch.

If you attempt to immediately select reverse at this point, the gears
will definitely crunch.  Reverse typically has no syncromesh.  Trying
to select reverse in this manner introduces the reverse gear between a
stationary output shaft and the still rotating heavy countershaft.
Gear teeth don't enjoy that sort of abuse.

There are two easy ways to prevent crunching gears when selecting
reverse.  You could depress the clutch and simply wait until you are
certain the gears have spun to a halt before sliding the gear selector
into reverse.  Or you can depress the clutch, momentarily select any
forward gear, and then select reverse.

The forward gears all typically have synchromesh cups which act as
brakes to match the rotational speeds of the output gear to the output
shaft before mechanically meshing the gear dogs.  Momentarily
selecting a forward gear will brake the rotating gear (and the
constantly meshed heavy countershaft and input shaft) to match the
same rotational speed of the stationary output shaft, thus bringing
everything to a smooth halt.  Now, keeping the clutch depressd, you
can select reverse with no risk of grinding gears.

        -Ferdinand-

Roo

GPL - Both Feet?

by Roo » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Hey, how about right-hand-braking?

I am using an old TM GP1 and left hand brake all the time :)
Throttle/break on paddles is _extremely_ precise.

Jack

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jack » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00


I and a few others explained heel-and-toe earlier in this thread. Check it
out if you haven't seen it...in particular, Ferdinand Trauttmansdorf's
decription of Ricky Rudd's heel-and-toe techniques at The Glen!

Do you left foot brake in your real car? Just curious...I just don't seem to
have the feel/sensitivity/modulation in my left foot for "at the limit"
braking!

Thanks for your comments, Graeme. With a 1:04.37 at The Glen, I'm always
interested in what you have to say!

Jack

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jack » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Wow! What a piece! Add a title and you could publish that post in an
automotive trade journal! Thanks!

Ferdinand, with your obviously thorough understanding of transmissions, I
think you're probably the guy to ask:

 Were the 67 gearboxes synchro or non-synchro?

Did they require use of the clutch pedal?

If they were able to get away with shifting without the clutch pedal, did it
affect drivetrain longevity?

How did the 67 F1 gearboxes differ from contemporary road and contemporary
racing gearboxes?

Jack

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jack » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00

Great post! I'm exhausted just reading it! Newly found respect for the turn
left guys!
John Walla

GPL - Both Feet?

by John Walla » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00



>It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that
>it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into
>reverse.

I never mentioned double-declutching into reverse, only made the
example that reverse is not syncro, since this is the example of
non-syncro gears that that is closest to home for almost everyone. In
the vast majority of cars I have driven you can't release the clutch
into a reverse while there is any forward motion of the car/shaft.

That was quite a detailed explanation though! :-)

Cheers!
John

Jon Dento

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jon Dento » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00




>>It's precisely --because-- most cars lack syncromesh on reverse that
>>it is counter-productive to double declutch when shifting into
>>reverse.

>I never mentioned double-declutching into reverse, only made the
>example that reverse is not syncro, since this is the example of
>non-syncro gears that that is closest to home for almost everyone. In
>the vast majority of cars I have driven you can't release the clutch
>into a reverse while there is any forward motion of the car/shaft.

Yes you can!!  Have you never driven a company car??!!
Jason Mond

GPL - Both Feet?

by Jason Mond » Thu, 07 Jan 1999 04:00:00




> >Combined axis is the wheel's fault (pedals), not GPL.  Is GPL not supposed
> to
> >work for those with combined pedals?

> I meant that if one was seeking maximum authenticity, one would have to
> avoid left foot braking if the cars of the era required declutching before
> downshifting.

I hear of all the people saying GPL is too difficult.  It's just a matter of how

fast you are trying to go.

Here are the steps I'm taking to *enjoy* GPL:

1. I crashed the first few days but drove the Conventry in trainer and
   advanced trainer mode to practice controlling these cars.
2. I moved to the GP Ferrari and starting racing online.  Lots of great
   battles and even won a few races :)
3. Move to other cars (because well, there in there why not try them? :)
   Learn a lot about setups by enjoying the challenges of making
   'slow' cars fast.
4. Move to the Lotus and see how close I can get to the fast guys.
5. Switch to split axis driving to see how much trail-braking really
   helps me.

I'm currently in step 3.  I love GPL and enjoy every minute of it
even with a combined axis T2. However, maximum authenicity
with split axis would not make GPL that much better, IMHO.
I know I could go faster, but I'm not the type to really spend
days gaining 1/10 of a second at Monza.

Jason.
--------
Jason Monds
"My other car is a Ferrari"
http://members.home.net/gpl.mondsj/gpl - For my combined gas/brake setups
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

Eldre

GPL - Both Feet?

by Eldre » Fri, 08 Jan 1999 04:00:00


I've seen the 'foot-cam' even on short tracks - Martinsville and Bristol.  It's
VERY interesting to watch... <g>

Eldred

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.


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