rec.autos.simulators

Andrew

The only hassle you'll have is running GPL. Use the OpenGL beta2 patch and
it might solve your problems. Make sure you use the latest Nvidia Reference
drivers (2.08 I think)

Every game game I own looks and runs much better on the TNT2. Voodoo3
however runs GPL flawlessly with all mirror detail at 1280x1024 res 36fps.
Opengl mode at this res. does some very strange things!

Rene

Too bad its not really an AGP solution at all, just is able to sit in the
AGP slot and does take advantage of the slightly faster AGP bus but still
uses its own proprietary memory transfer.

Nonetheless, yes thats something that we've all been forgetting is to
qualify with the type of computer because the TNT2 does take "off" more with
higher end machines.  However, it should be noted that while apparently its
not nearly as weighted as the TNT2, the same thing happens with the
Voodoo3s.

What, do you swap the cards when you want to play GPL?  What are your system
specs?  Generally V3 seems to get higher benchmarks, and all it doesn't do
are 32 bit colour and large textures. Let me assure you Q3test (the one all
TNT2 owners bang on about) still looks mighty fine on my v3

colour effects, but it still looks fabulous and the framerate is superb. OTOH
I can run GPL (far more important than Q3test given that this is RAS) without
beta opengl drivers and without having to***around with mirror refresh
rates.

Unfortunately, it seems that the Voodoo has dropped out of fashion because it
doesn't have the features Carmack wants.

Mark
Reading, UK

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

The correct answer is...

It depends.

I almost went with the well hyped TNT2, but decided to go with the
unfashionable non-boastworthy v3 3000 because, although it doesn't do 32bit
colour and large textures, it is more suited to what I play - GPL and SCGT.
There are folks out there who claim to get better performance from their V2
than their TNT2 in SCGT (ouch), and GPL supports Glide natively.  Also, from
what I've read (and I have to admit it's not a whole hell of a lot) it seems
that V3 3000 generally outshines TNT2 in benchmarking tests.  So, do you want
features for what you -might- play tomorrow or performance for what you -do-
play today?  If it's the former, you should probably go for the new Matrox,
if it's the latter then given you've posted to RAS, I'd recommend the V3.

Mark
Reading, UK

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

What opengl drivers?  I wasn't aware of any.  I know there is an OpenGL beta
RASTERIZER for GPL (aka, its exactly the same thing as the 3dfx rasterizer
or Rendition or software rasterizers except for its for OpenGL and was
released as an addon.) and I don't have to***around with mirror refresh
rates either.

Carmack isn't the only developer and he ain't the only gamer out there that
wants these features.

Yup.

SCGT.

Unfashionable? Heh, ok..you are going a bit out there on a limb with that
one.  And the Voodoo3 series was way more hyped than the TNT2s.  Heck, I
dont recall ever seeing any NVidia commercials on tv, but tons of (in some
cases rather good) Voodoo3 commercials from 3dfx.

SCGT runs better in D3D anyways. :)

Whats wrong with that claim?  Its fact.  A TNT2 outperforms a SINGLE Voodoo2
in every game I've tried it on (except some older ones that are Glide only
from the days when 3D acceleration was just emerging).  It outperforms my
Voodoo2 SLI (Diamond 12 meg cards) in every game too.

GPL supports: Software, Rendition, Glide AND OpenGL
SCGT supports: D3D and Glide

Use the appropriate rasterizer for each game, for your card, that gives you
the best performance, etc.  And btw, GPL doesn't natively support anything.
All the rasterizers, including yes the OpenGL, are contained in seperate
dlls (dynamic link libraries) which basically translate the internal GPL
engine calls into the appropriate calls for that particular 3D API.

Outshines? ROTFL.  Right, give me all these links and benchmarking reviews.
And right now I do use the features of the TNT2 with Q3A.  I'll use them
with Rally Championship (even better if it was a G400Max), other games such
as Expendable will use advanced features.

And btw, the new Matrox G400 and G400MAX still has some driver issues
especially in the realm of OpenGL so would be a bad choice if you really
like playing GPL (and dont have 1 or 2 Voodoo2 cards handy).  If all you
care about is GPL and nothing else, then Voodoo3 is definetly the way to go.

But nonetheless here is a variety of links on the subject to enlighten those
who wish to know, and to enlighten those that obviously dont know.  There
are even more links to different reviews, as everyone has their own tilt, so
I can't list them all.

Its Quake3, but its the biggest test I know of different hardware (of course
with Tom's bias).
http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/index.html
most notably this link
http://www.tomshardware.com/releases/99q2/9905111/q3test-04.html
Darn, so much for the notion, according to Tom, that the Voodoo3 outshines
TNT2 cards.

Rest of the links
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/video_june_99/
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/articles/tnt-tnt2/
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/3dfx_v3_3000/
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/hercules_tnt2ultra/
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/elsa_erazor3/

http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/Voo3vstnt2/
http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/3dgraphics/

http://www.anandtech.com

http://www.zdnet.com

P.S.  Oh yeah, the lame matra of "features for what you -might- play
tomorrow" is recycled over and over again.  A couple of recent examples are
a) the introduction to the mainstream of the 3D hardware accelerator.
People didnt think you'd need or want it or it was too expensive, so there
were naysayers.  b) forcefeedback.  Gee, how many folks just went out and
bought new FF wheels because of GPL1.1? Mms.  Of course there are always
things like 3D glasses that just have either never worked, never worked well
enough or just generally failed to catch.

Monza, qualifying, 5 computer opponents, all details on, mirror 2
800 x 600 resolution, P3 450 mhz 128 MB:

TNT2: 17 fps
Voodoo2: 31 fps, and running rock stable

I am definitely in for the Voodoo2 for GPL!!!!!!!!!

I will buy one for my second PC so I do not have to switch the boards
between the PC's!! Or maybe a V2 because of the higher possible
resolution, but 800 x 600 does not reallly bother me, and V3 is more
expensive...

Rene

Rene

Trust me, they are ALL over the place in the US.  TV, Radio, etc. :)
Mms...I guess I haven't gotten that vibe from the internet.  In fact, they
keep hammering away that the V3 is a very good card and good value, but it
just lacks the more advanced features of some of the other cards.

And I think you are overestimating Carmack's powers (btw, you realize of
course he sits on a 3dfx panel that helps advice 3dfx of what
developers/games/gamers need or what? :)

I run SCGT (or used to), N2, NR99, GPL, SBK, unnamed racing sim, Quake3,
Fleet Command, etc, etc, etc without any hitches.

All I try and do is give my experience with it.  Someone asks if a TNT2 or
TNT2 Ultra works? My experience says yes.  And not everyone is a fantatic,
not everyone only runs racing sims.

I dont remember anyone stating that a V2 outperformed a TNT2.  I'd like to
reread it and see what the person has.

There are mirror issues, there are corruption issues (or were) with the
Voodoo cards.  Dont remember the Banshee or initial teething problems of the
Voodoo3?  How fast we forget.  Only card I don't remember ANYONE saying they
had problems with was the REndition boards.

Natively would mean the actual underlying engine was written in that
particular API.  People used to do it that way when there were only a few
APIs out...but not anymore, makes it way too hard to adapt or as Papyrus did
supply an OpenGL solution because people asked for it.

True enough, however its a TECHNOLOGY test.  Its a good piece of software to
try hardware one and one that will test the graphics card more than the CPU.

RC may suck, it may not. But judging by the screenshots its graphics engine
is going to take everything the card can give it and use it.  They've had
more than 2 efforts btw, and its widely acknowledge that the last one
sucked.

Think Q3 but in 3rd person with lots of nice new graphics to go oooo over.

Q2 is old in terms of technology.  And no, you don't need a 550mhz P3 to run
a TNT2 or G400 card.

Future software?  You seem to think in terms of years, not months.  Most
people don't buy new video cards every couple of months, so when we speak of
upcoming titles that are coming out within months that will take advantage
of new technology then its a matter of personal preference whether you want
here and now or want a card that will be ble to handle the games coming over
next 6 months or so.

Hey, thats fine.  But to make the assumption that someone who posts on RAS
solely plays racing games, or only a couple in particular, is assuming I
think too much.

Besides, there are lots of different simulations besides GPL and SCGT
discussed here and covered by RAS and not all as limited as GPL's graphics
engine.

Thats fine.  I quit reading PC Gamer awhile back because they ended up being
in the minority on must issues, especially benchmarking.

Its NOT true.  I never said anything about NOT advising for the V3.  I'm
just saying, repeatedly and its not getting through, that the V3 is NOT the
only option.  And to say that the V3 is better supported in this genre or
any other is a falacy of the highest order.  The TNT2 is just as capable in
the 16bit realm as the V3, just because it has some additional features that
the V3 doesn't does not mean its suddenly not as well supported.  It
supports every single non-proprietary feature that the V3 does (i.e. it
doesn't support Glide because its proprietary).  Same with the G400 or the
Savage4 or the ATI Rage Fury.

The point was, not everyone listened to people saying "buy only what you
need", they started buying hardware when there was only a few games out that
took advantage of it.

And just because you never buy anything unless its supported in current
hardware, doesn't mean others have to conform to that.  I've dealt with
computers for a long time and I find its much easier to anticipate than be
reactive.  I know that 32bit color, large textures, environmental bump
mapping, with DX7 there will be texture compression, are coming in the near
future because developers and industry has said so and those that have said
it have been on the cuttin edge, such as id.  Thats my view, differs quite a
bit from yours, but both are valid as long as everyone gets to make up their
own mind.

Better run out and buy it then, since GPL supports it.  Oh so did Viper
Racing.  Personally I got it because I was in the need of a new wheel after
my T2 died and I didn't feel like fixing it.  Wasn't in the mode to spend
$300+ on a wheel and the FF wheel I bought was priced right, and FF was
starting to be talked about and used in a variety of software and even
racing sims.  I'm glad I did, if I'd reacted I'd have bougth another non-FF
wheel and I'd have to go buy a FF wheel now. :?

Yes, ok..so what?  They listened to the customer and supplied one.  Its
unsupported, big deal. Sierra's customer support isn't all that great.  You
are making to big of distinction here.

I'm not aware of any TNT2 or TNT owners having to use a 3rd party (i.e. not
developed by Papyrus) solution to get the game to run correctly with their
cards.  Oh yeah, whats that "wrapper" that was used before GPL1.1 that
allowed folks to play with their mirror refresh rates?
Give me a break.

Hey, thats great if thats how you like to buy stuff.  I tend to be PROACTIVE
rather than REACTIVE.

Bottom line is, if you are happy then its good enough for you.  Never said
anything is wrong with the Voodoo3 solution, probably (and I've stated
before) that it is a good one if all you are itnerested in is GPL.  Maybe
its not the best solution if you play a larger selection of titles and or
are looking at some of the titles coming down the road either now or in a
few months.

People claim their V2 outperforms a TNT2 and you're not surprised?  I was.
I'm just going on what people were saying when I asked why D3D SCGT ran
better than Glide on my v3...

Unsupported OpenGL, mind you - with mirror issues and which many people seem
to have have problems with.

Sorry, I just assumed that if something supports Rendition and Voodoo OOTB,
it was natively supported.  What's the difference?

I made you happy, that's nice ;-)
Q3A.  The TNT2 owner's God.  It's just a 2 level test, not a full product.
This is RAS.  GPL is God here...  (BTW Q3test runs mighty fine on my V3).
Rally Championship - not here yet, not even a playable demo.  May end up
being no better than CMR.  Worse still, might end up being as bad as their
previous two efforts with pleasing graphics.
Expendable?  What's that then?

I said it wasn't a whole lot I'd read - a couple of UK game mags.  PC Gamer
(I think) recommended V3 unless you had, like, a 550MHz PC and craved the
features of the Matrox.  I believe the main test was Q2 - a full product.

go.

But I'm sure Matrox will sort that out in the future.  Mmm, future software,
a concept you seem to be happy with...
Well for me it's GPL and SCGT.  I don't really care about much else and
probably won't until N3 (I'll worry about that when it arrives - but for now
Papy claim Glide support along with D3D...), and given that someone
originally posted to RAS asking for hardware advice, I'm guessing they're
main interest is pretty much the same.

OK then, according to PC Gamer the V3 outshines the TNT2 for current games.
How's that?

Oh, please.  Maybe it's recycled because it's true.  By the time your
beloved Q3A arrives you'll be wanting your next, next, next gen piece of
hardware.  Why should I advise someone who's into racing sims against V3?
It may be inferior tech to a TNT2 but it's better supported in this genre
right now.  And the V3 still does a damn fine job regardless.

Which has about as much relevance to this discussion as...?  People bought
3D hardware when the software deemed it necessary.  Probably Tomb Raider and
Quake did more for the accellerator cause than anything else.  The software
existed, people bought the hardware.  I never bought anything on the basis
that it was necessary for software that hadn't even been released yet.  On
my P200 I bought a Rendition card for N2 and SODA and I later bought a V1
for everything else (F1RS, for example).  Now on my PIII I buy a V3 for GPL,
and it's fine for pretty much anything else out there right now.

My point well made.  A product exists that supports FF, I'll buy a FF wheel.
What is the point of buying a FF wheel before then?  Only to brag about, I
guess...

Mark
Reading, UK