rec.autos.simulators

Boy I'm asking  for it now.

Take you car go 60 mph down the highway and see points on the road that you
want to hit. Now take your wife and do this. You'll find out both of you can
do it.

Now go into F1RS, GPL, N2 Sim ect. You try it and you can do it but it isn't
as easy as your passenger car. Your wife can't do it well at all and might
just spin out of control.

Now wouldn't you think the sim should be at least as easy to drive as your
passenger car? You would think an actual racing car would be able to dance
on the spot you picked compared to a Ford Escort. Esp. a F1 race car, these
things are unbelievably sticky.

Well I'm hear to wake you guys up and state that your sim is only simming a
more sloppily handled car than it's real life counterpart.

Don't tell me I'm looking for an arcade racer because those cars drive on
slick 50 and are criminal in my book.

I'm here just to remind you guys that your not simulating the real world. We
need better handling vehicles in these sims, I think they make it so hard
just so only a select few can drive them properly making it somewhat
representative of the top racers in the real world. What these companies get
is a lot of turned off would be racers.

If a sim was so damned good wouldn't you think Gordon could just sit down on
N2 and dominate? We'll he bangs off the wall until he learned how to adjust
to a more unforgiving sim.

Last ex. Buddy gets a birthday gift to drive around C***te Speedway in a
Nascar. He gets up to 150 mph and still felt confident. He comes over and
races it on N2 and is out of control bigtime. I then give him my adjusted
arcade mode version and then he's stating this is more like it.

Why do I even write this I watched a F1 race fire up F1RS and I'm telling
you these cars in the game are not even close to the way a F1 car really
handles.

Over and out.

QBM

"...sim racers suck..."

Try Gran Turismo... it's by far the best sim out there.  Of course it's not the
same as getting into your car and actually driving it, but damn... IT'S A
GAME... so quit ***ing about it and just have fun.

Marcus

Yes, but at 60mph in a street legal car, it's easy to lose contorl. If you can
make sharp sudden turns  you might wreck big time.  In a NASCAR, Championship
Car, or F1, you can make sudden moves at 100+mph.  In a normal car, at 100+
mph, you don't even think of making a move.
Also, if you take a high preformance car, it has around 300h.p and Goodyears.
If you take a NASCAR, it has 700h.p and bias-ply tires.  And lets not forget
they have spoliers.  So there's a big difference.
If you want a "realistic" sim, make one yourself or pay $400 or so to drive 3
laps at the Richard Petty driving experience.  Otherwise, QUIT COMPLAINING!
Racer X
Veteran Sim Racer
Victory Lane-
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

Sounds about right so far..

I disagree, sometimes it seems the sim car is more rigid and can do things it
shouldn't like defy physics and turn sharply regardless of slip angles, inertia,
centrifugal force etc

Other aspects are - dodgy intel hardware, joystick ports that skip a beat
because some other part of the system is working overtime. Delays between input
processing and the visual/auditory feedback.

I hear screamer2 is pretty good ;-)

As far as I can tell each sim has its own physics world and if you can adapt and
even exploit it you will be able to get very fast laptimes. Is it reflective of
real driving skill probably not. But on the other hand many of a real drivers
skills are used - things like identifying a corner and breaking it down to the
3 parts (turnin, apex, exit), coordination, reflexes, anticipation, sensitivity
and consistancy etc

So really I'd expect that those who are fast in simland would also be better
than average in a real car. However I do agree that in many cases sims are
harder than they should be - its too easy to make mistakes.

GPL seems quite good but the frustration factor seems to get to me. Its very
much like playing golf - those glorious shots keeping you coming back, for GPL
its that near perfect lap, except in my case there's not enough of them.

More likely its because he learned how to survive without all his usual senses.
Heres why I say that - computer sims can't give you the proper feedback so you
have to draw on experience instead.

Perhaps the arcade mode removes a need to adapt to a car that has realistic
levels of grip minus the real world feedback/sensations. ie it has plenty of
grip and you have to be pretty wild to exceed the adhesion limit?

I don't drive F1 cars so I couldn't possibly comment ;-) but I expect you're
probably right..

In summary I'd say sim developers are developing more sophisticated physics
engines and are closer to simulating real race cars, but haven't yet figured out
a satisfactory way of compensating for the loss of real world sensations.

In the meantime they're getting harder to drive, however Force Feedback is
probably a step in the right direction.

David.

Let me put it this way.  It is just a game.

Hmmmm you never went on the NROS.   I can tell you that Dale Earneardt Jr,
when he races against us, is pretty ***, and kick the arse of 99.9% of
us  (hehe not me !).

Hmmm it's still 150mph vs. the 183mph laps I can do in average.  GO take
nascar2 and cruise at 150mph. Very easy. VERY.

Yes, but this is F1RS.  With the limitation of today's PC, it is not always
possible to simulate the complete reality (since it wouldn't virtual
anymore).   But tell me that somebody who can do sub- 1:10secs lap for 105
laps (full GP) at Watkins Glen in GPLegends isn't a good driver.

But like you said "most" SimRacers suck.  Most, yes.  If you are on the
NROS, you would know that some driver don't sucks, and actually are real
drivers in real life.  Just yesterday I went to a karting race, and got the
pole, led all laps and won over drivers who did karting for more than
10years. It was my second time only.

Just think that the racing simulators try to simulate reality, but finally
they come soo different from the reality that they are unique.  Heck
somebody who can master GPLegends or Nascar2 (like some top10 drivers on the
NROS) are some great drivers.  They could stink in real life, since Nascar2
has it"s unique way of driving.  It's a new form of racing, like dirt
racing, Rallying, karting, etc...

It is not because Nascar2 is selling under the game section that it is a
game. Go tell this on the NROS. You will get flamed more than me around 1
year ago on r.a.s. <g>.  It is a different form of racing than
real-life-Nascar, and if you master it you are really a good driver.

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

NB: PLANK ALERT!!! PLANK ALERT!!! PLANK ALERT!!!

Most *serious* sims are trying to simulate real racing cars. Do you
think a real racing car is as easy to drive as an ordinary car?

Too hard? sounds to me like maybe, you are not very good at racing sims?
BTW, I'm no expert, and I find all serious sims hard to drive, (at
first?) but with lots of practice, lots of time, and lots of effort,
they *can* be mastered, and you *can* achieve reasonable times.
Maybe not the *best* times, but certainly reasonable times....

Maybe you just haven't practiced enough?

This one sentence says a lot about you........

Gee its been nice talking with you.....

8-)

*Peter*    8-)
(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Are you Don Wilshe in disguise??

Well, your right!  Its a game! As for the rest of you, I don't think I could
run in the top 10 in an actual Winston Cup race. Don't get me wrong, I would
love to try.  As it is right now, I would be black flagged because I could
not keep up.  Hey, with practice and a lot of experience, them maybe I could
keep up.  As for right now N2 is the closest thing I am ever going to get to
Stock Car racing.  And, I love every minute I can race with N2. Oh, and by
the way, I can win races in N2.  How can that be with a sim that is so hard
to drive?  I'll give ya one on the fact that I can't drive ICR2 fast on any
road courses.  I think it has something to do with the fact that I hate to
slow down.  Also, my timing stinks when braking.  I would have the same
problems with my own car if I didn't use the brakes.

Time for a review! Lets review some of the differences of the actual thing
and the sim.

First, the actual thing:
Sight:    180+ depends on your own vision. Turn your head you see things
that pertain to the car and the race
               to the left and right.
Smell:    Engine, smoke.
Hearing:    Engine, Com-link, general sound made in and out of the car.
Taste:      racing grime!
Touch:     Actual g-forces, vibrations, bumps, loose and push sensations.

Next the Sim:
Sight:    Don't know exactly, but it is not dependent on my own eye sight.
In fact if I turn my head.  I see
              pictures of my wife and son, a book case, doors, manuals,
phones, and a computer!
Smell:    Whatever my wife uses to clean with. Closest thing I smell, that
would be even at a track, is an
              occasional whiff of electrical contact cleaner.
Hearing:    Engine, Tires, Com-link (on N2), the phone, my son crying (8Mths
old), My wife asking to get a
                   bottle,  and the fan on the computer.
Taste:      The coke I am drinking and the sandwich.
Touch:     Okay, to get the actual feel of the back-end of my sim car rear
tires loosing traction, the back end
                 of my computer chair will have to "Kick out" on its own.
No vibrations! (Unless you have a vibrating
                 chair).

To finish this up!  I guess a lot of people have a hard time translating the
actual thing to a sim due to the lack of key information you use while
driving a car.

TF
 "Anyone can drive fast, driving fast in traffic is a different story!"

LOL.

Trips

If you saw the F1 Grand Prix in Montreal on Sunday you'll realise that the best
drivers in the world find Formula 1 cars hard to drive (loads of spins and crashes
but great to watch though). Breaking down from 180mph into a hairpin while trying to
take the corner faster than anyone else in the world is tricky. On most sims you can
drive round at 30mph without the slightest risk of spinning - but you'll get some
poor lap times. I saw quite a few Ford Fiestas (different but not too different to
the road car) spin at Brands Hatch the other day, so don't fool yourself than
pushing any car with a half decent top speed to its limits around race track hairpin
is easy - you've just never done it on a public road unless you posted your mail
from hospital or jail. If you want a sim that's really easy try Virtual Karts and
when your really bored (after about five minutes) try a real sim.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

When simulating a real car in a PC there are some things which are very hard to
simulate and which really help you in real life driving.

First the g-forces, which I guess you wont feel at 60 mph, but when driving a
real race car, you feel the race car's every movement (if it has a good setup,
that is :o)). In front of the PC, you wont feel a thing, thus making the sim
harder to drive than the real thing. A good help is tyre squelling, though.

Second, the way the steering stabilizes at high speeds on the straights. In a
real race car it is very easy to drive fast on a straight, you can often let go
of the wheel and the front tyres will actually want to stay straight. How do we
simulate this, perhaps with force feedback in the near future, but until then
this is very hard to simulate, thus making the sim harder to drive than the real
thing. GP2 solved it with a reduce steering with increasing speed, which
actually worked quite well.

Third, which only is true for your street car - lock to lock steering. I guess
you can turn your wheel several times before your front tyres has come to their
maximum turning point. This makes it very easy to drive with great precision. A
real race car dont have this low gearing on the steering. For a F1 car you get
at most 180 degrees of turning from straight forward to full left, or to put it
in another way - at most 360 degrees lock to lock. If we can get 270 degrees on
our wheels in front of the PC, we are happy :o).

Personally I think it's a good thing the sims are harder to drive than the real
thing, cause it makes for some great practice for the real thing. I know a lot
of sim racers who has started to drive in sims, got very good at it, then tried
real racing and was immidiately very fast.

If you refuse to put down 10 hours a week practicing, then all sims has an
arcade mode, where the physics engine is much more simple and you can have brake
help, throttle help and gearing help, and still have lots of fun in the game.

/Christer, want the physics to be as realistic as possible, knowing that this
will make the sim harder than the real thing, and loving it :o)

PS. Dont forget to read my responses below. DS.

No surprise to me :o).

Some wifes do it better than their men, but that's another thread :o). The
reason for this phenomena is actually two reasons. Your street car has probably
twice the lock to lock as a race car, which of course makes it easier to drive
straight. In a real car it gets harder to turn the wheels the faster you go and
the wheels wants to stay centered, this i more noticeable in a race car, since
you have no servo in a real race car. Unfortenately we have servos in our sims,
the worst kind actually, since we dont get any feedback at all, except for the
spring tension in the wheel unit.

I could say that I write this to wake you up, but I wont, cause I have no clue
on what's right or wrong, perhaps there isn't any :o).

Then it's the arcade racers that are too easy :o).

I dont know about that. GP2 has sold in over a million copies, and I'm guessing
N2 is somewhere up there too.

I cant really say much about N2, hasn't driven it yet, well, the demo and
according to me it was too forgiving :o). But going from a real racing car to a
simulator is very hard, becuase suddenly you dont feel the car anymore and you
have to struggle to keep it straight on the straights. It actually takes a very
long time for a real race car driver to be fast in simulators, thus getting used
to not feeling the car with his body and struggeling on the straights.

Actually F1RS is a little more arcadic than for example GP2, and definitely GPL.
I believe F1RS to have a more simple physics engine being their first try on a
racing simulator,  and mainly because I dont feel that the car behaves as I see
the real F1 cars behave on the telly :o). GP2 did a much better job at that,
IMO. And GPL is just unbelievable. I've just recently read a post at NROS NG
about a real racing car instructor who often drives those historic racing cars
and he says GPL is spot on :o))).

Does this mean you wont read the replies :o)?

/Christer, never knows if I add to discussions or just confuse them even more
:o)

When simulating a real car in a PC there are some things which are very hard to
simulate and which really help you in real life driving.

First the g-forces, which I guess you wont feel at 60 mph, but when driving a
real race car, you feel the race car's every movement (if it has a good setup,
that is :o)). In front of the PC, you wont feel a thing, thus making the sim
harder to drive than the real thing. A good help is tyre squelling, though.

Second, the way the steering stabilizes at high speeds on the straights. In a
real race car it is very easy to drive fast on a straight, you can often let go
of the wheel and the front tyres will actually want to stay straight. How do we
simulate this, perhaps with force feedback in the near future, but until then
this is very hard to simulate, thus making the sim harder to drive than the real
thing. GP2 solved it with a reduce steering with increasing speed, which
actually worked quite well.

Third, which only is true for your street car - lock to lock steering. I guess
you can turn your wheel several times before your front tyres has come to their
maximum turning point. This makes it very easy to drive with great precision. A
real race car dont have this low gearing on the steering. For a F1 car you get
at most 180 degrees of turning from straight forward to full left, or to put it
in another way - at most 360 degrees lock to lock. If we can get 270 degrees on
our wheels in front of the PC, we are happy :o).

Personally I think it's a good thing the sims are harder to drive than the real
thing, cause it makes for some great practice for the real thing. I know a lot
of sim racers who has started to drive in sims, got very good at it, then tried
real racing and was immidiately very fast.

If you refuse to put down 10 hours a week practicing, then all sims has an
arcade mode, where the physics engine is much more simple and you can have brake
help, throttle help and gearing help, and still have lots of fun in the game.

/Christer, want the physics to be as realistic as possible, knowing that this
will make the sim harder than the real thing, and loving it :o)

PS. Dont forget to read my responses below. DS.

No surprise to me :o).

Some wifes do it better than their men, but that's another thread :o). The
reason for this phenomena is actually two reasons. Your street car has probably
twice the lock to lock as a race car, which of course makes it easier to drive
straight. In a real car it gets harder to turn the wheels the faster you go and
the wheels wants to stay centered, this i more noticeable in a race car, since
you have no servo in a real race car. Unfortenately we have servos in our sims,
the worst kind actually, since we dont get any feedback at all, except for the
spring tension in the wheel unit.

I could say that I write this to wake you up, but I wont, cause I have no clue
on what's right or wrong, perhaps there isn't any :o).

Then it's the arcade racers that are too easy :o).

I dont know about that. GP2 has sold in over a million copies, and I'm guessing
N2 is somewhere up there too.

I cant really say much about N2, hasn't driven it yet, well, the demo and
according to me it was too forgiving :o). But going from a real racing car to a
simulator is very hard, becuase suddenly you dont feel the car anymore and you
have to struggle to keep it straight on the straights. It actually takes a very
long time for a real race car driver to be fast in simulators, thus getting used
to not feeling the car with his body and struggeling on the straights.

Actually F1RS is a little more arcadic than for example GP2, and definitely GPL.
I believe F1RS to have a more simple physics engine being their first try on a
racing simulator,  and mainly because I dont feel that the car behaves as I see
the real F1 cars behave on the telly :o). GP2 did a much better job at that,
IMO. And GPL is just unbelievable. I've just recently read a post at NROS NG
about a real racing car instructor who often drives those historic racing cars
and he says GPL is spot on :o))).

Does this mean you wont read the replies :o)?

/Christer, never knows if I add to discussions or just confuse them even more
:o)