rec.autos.simulators

So by using that definition, GP2 is a simulation, because it has a
damage model, as real life has it too. Whether that damage simulation
is poor is whole another discussion.

OTOH then we have something like NFS1 and TOCA. They haven't even
tried to simulate damage model, so at least in that aspect they are
not simulations.

Apparently even in those flight simulations you can still try again
even if you crash the plane. But they still model the crashes too.

But most of us can't (be real racing drivers example) thats why we use
simulators.

8-)

*Peter*    8-)
(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

% At least touring cars look like there road equivalents, the Williams F1 is
% nothing like a road car beyond having 4 wheels and an internal combustion
% engine, and couldn't get anywhere near being licensed for road use. So what do
% we know? What do the drivers say about TOCA or F1RS? (How much are they paid to
% say it?. See  http://www.codemasters.com/ for the answer but here are 2
% excerpts:

I am sorry, but I just gotta do it.  I hope you all understand....

% Frank Biela: " I like the game a lot, it's extremely realistic.
                            ^^^^^  [speaks for itself]
% The circuits are
% like the originals and the reactions of the car are
% extremely similar to the
            ^^^^^^^^ [similar, but not simulates]
% real thing - when the car spins it looks like a real race car."
                                     ^^^^^ [looks, but not acts]
% (note the 2 uses
% of "extremely" here)

% Anthony Reid: " This is the most accurate driving game that I've played. The
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
% game has good detail, the graphics are excellent, the grandstands, track
  ^^^^^ [there's that word again]
% furniture, and elevation of the track are excellent. The game is tremendous
                                          [yet again]      ^^^^
% fun." (note the use of "most accurate" here.)

What Anthony points out as excellent is mostly "eye-candy", in other
words it "looks" great.

I think that once again we are on the cusp of what a simulation is or
should be.  Should the simulation simulate the real physics of racing
(Grand Prix Legends) or should it simulate the "feel" of racing (Toca)?

That's how I see the difference in NASCAR2 between "arcde" (the feel of
racing) and non-arcade (the simulation of the physics of racing).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snip>
% Isn't that what is important in a simulation ? The essence of a sim
% is to recreate as accurately as possible a real driving experience.
% TOCA does that very well.

This is the essence of "one" type of simulation, the "driving
experience".  Another type of simulation is the "actual physics" of
driving.  There can be a big difference between the two.  Or there can
actually be a melding of the two.  Does Toca "really" simulate physics
or just the feel.  (To be honest, I don't think that any entertainment
sim has approached the latter for force until GPL).

<snip>
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Spot on, they are *simulators*, if you want the real thing, then do the
% real thing.

% But most of us can't (be real racing drivers example) thats why we use
% simulators.

STOP!  HALT!  This just in!

It has come to the realization of the Unsenet gods that the newsgroup
rec.autos.simulators has been for years now discussing things that
aren't really simulators.  After great deliberation and thorough
investigation and much scientific examination, it was decided that the
subjects of discussion in r.a.s. where in reality only facsimiles.

Henceforth this newsgroup will be known as rec.autos.facsimiles and all
discussion of simulations must cease!  All violators of this decree
shall face the wrath of Le Chicken!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Remco.

Even though it's made a turn towards defining a sim the post was really
attacking the legitimacy of the handling model of how a race car really is
to what a typical sim actual gives you in return. I concede the cars handle
much looser, wilder and overall harder than their real life counterparts.
Not conceding either as easy but even driving many sims at a reduced rate of
speed these games are still difficult for many where as I feel their real
life counterparts are much more controllable.

It wasn't about what makes a sim or not. But is the feeling really right in
these things?

Toca being the most realistic (less GPL) to how it portrays the real feel of
driving. IMO

But it's been good either way.

QBM

Nobody stated that in Toca if you drive crazily and aggressively run into
other drivers you are warned then disqualified so this does limit crazy
attempts at passes. And you can change the level of damage in the options
where you don't have to be so crazy to get warned. These will tame your
aggressive driving a bit.

QBM

--
Andrew Fielden.
UK.

How many months has this thread been going on now?

--
ICQ # 5905329

Who's fooling who? All racing "sims" are "games". The point where they cease to be
games is when they become useful for some other objective (like military flight sims
or weather models). Right now they are just programs we play for enjoyment. When they
lose that they become like work and that's when I get off. Even though these games
(GPL included) provide a reasonable approximation to driving a racing car, they make
no higher statement - they are no more important to Western culture that Doom or Mine
Sweeper.

Your definition of a "game" is incorrect.  Games are useful.  Without
games you would not have developed as a child. There are more basic
social skills learned by toddlers and small children through games and
play than you would ever comprehend.

Games are also useful for the military:  ever heard the term "wargames"?
What do you think the various branches of the armed forces play wargames
for? To *LEARN*.  There are many other groups that employ "games" as
part of their learning and training.....fire brigades, police,
ambulance, emergency services, airlines (flight simulators)....the list
is quite extensive.

Just because some activity serves a clearly defined useful purpose does
not necessarily make it an unenjoyable chore!  By the same token, just
because something is labeled as a "game" or "hobby" doesn't mean that it
won't serve a useful purpose.

Actually don't be fooled!  War is a game, it's just a more lethal sport
than racing.  As a matter of fact life is a game, please don't be
fooled...

Checkers is a game and chess is a game. . .  But they are worlds apart.

% Who's fooling who? All racing "sims" are "games". The point where they cease to be
% games is when they become useful for some other objective (like military flight sims
% or weather models). Right now they are just programs we play for enjoyment. When they
% lose that they become like work and that's when I get off. Even though these games
% (GPL included) provide a reasonable approximation to driving a racing car, they make
% no higher statement - they are no more important to Western culture that Doom or Mine
% Sweeper.

% > % At least touring cars look like there road equivalents, the Williams F1 is
% > % nothing like a road car beyond having 4 wheels and an internal combustion
% > % engine, and couldn't get anywhere near being licensed for road use. So what do
% > % we know? What do the drivers say about TOCA or F1RS? (How much are they paid to
% > % say it?. See  http://www.codemasters.com/ for the answer but here are 2
% > % excerpts:
% >
% > I am sorry, but I just gotta do it.  I hope you all understand....
% >
% > % Frank Biela: " I like the game a lot, it's extremely realistic.
% >                             ^^^^^  [speaks for itself]
% > % The circuits are
% > % like the originals and the reactions of the car are
% > % extremely similar to the
% >             ^^^^^^^^ [similar, but not simulates]
% > % real thing - when the car spins it looks like a real race car."
% >                                      ^^^^^ [looks, but not acts]
% > % (note the 2 uses
% > % of "extremely" here)
% >
% > % Anthony Reid: " This is the most accurate driving game that I've played. The
% >                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
% > % game has good detail, the graphics are excellent, the grandstands, track
% >   ^^^^^ [there's that word again]
% > % furniture, and elevation of the track are excellent. The game is tremendous
% >                                           [yet again]      ^^^^
% > % fun." (note the use of "most accurate" here.)
% >
% > What Anthony points out as excellent is mostly "eye-candy", in other
% > words it "looks" great.
% >
% > I think that once again we are on the cusp of what a simulation is or
% > should be.  Should the simulation simulate the real physics of racing
% > (Grand Prix Legends) or should it simulate the "feel" of racing (Toca)?
% >
% > That's how I see the difference in NASCAR2 between "arcde" (the feel of
% > racing) and non-arcade (the simulation of the physics of racing).
% >
% > --
% > **************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
% >      Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

% > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You are saying that using a high-fidelity military
flight simulator wouldn't be fun?  If I had one of
my own, you wouldn't be able to pull me out of it.
The same would go for a driving simulator along the
lines of Silicon Motor Speedway.  It does, in fact,
take a lot of work to drive GPL.  Racing N2 on-line
on TEN is probably even more work - are you ready
to quit now?  If don't watch it, I may start using
equations to make my point :)

I maintain that years of experience with ICR2, GP2,
N2, GPL, and others, makes me faster when I do
get on a racing course.  Not Villenueve-fast, not
Andretti-fast, hell, not even Matsushita-fast.  But,
definitely faster than the average person with no
sim or real racing experience.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports