rec.autos.simulators

Andrew when your right your right. I'm a ***y American and can appreciate
what Toca represents. It's a balance of both for the better of all and other
games that obtain this balance or near is MTM 2 and N2 Arcade Mode. MTM 2
being the least, it does capture the handling model well but the other areas
are suffering. But they hit the balance with the handling. N2 losses nothing
in the arcade mode to drop in from a sim just adds more traction that I feel
is debatable as being more real or not to sim mode. Motoracer is also in
this group but on the MTM 2 side of things barely making the grade.

What make's Toca not a full blown sim? Damage model on high still might be a
little to forgiving. Setups aren't needed to be realistic since they already
have the actual cars from the actual series there adjusted and ready to go.
Other than that it offers many things other so called sims don't. Much more
realistic feedback than all the current buyable sims. Leaning, bumps, wheel
hopping ect.  that gives you input so you can adjust properly and naturally.

I also feel about your first statement "More realistic handling gives the
game more longevity since there is more of a challenge."  that this is true
because you have to practice much more to race competitively in the sim
model. Making it seem more intriguing to those willing to go through the
vigorous.

I've found though racing either way (sim/arcade) in a multiplayer
environment both are challenging to the hilt and never grow old.The bottom
line is that a lot of frustration is reduced racing the arcade model and
many times the results are more intriguing and tight for the whole group.
More people want to be involved with the arcade model because they can't
spend the time leering and tweaking, BUT THEY CAN'T.

QBM

Cars with "Magna-Traction" can change direction much quicker than
"Sim-Mode"

Prediction-code hates it when you change directions or speeds quickly.

Papyrus may have attempted to use Arcade mode while in the beta stages.

It may have been so much worse than sim-mode that they choose to shelve
the idea.

Yes it allows the driver more control of his car, but it may cause the
system less control of the other cars...net effect, more "warping", more
wrecking, more arguments.

On IPX however.. I agree with you 100%.

mykey

% >>  N2 Arcade mode (driving model), =
% >> Toca, and MTM 2
% >
% >None of these are sims? (N2 in arcade mode is *not* a sim!)
% >So what are you talking about?

% I'm sorry but I dissagree I believe the handling mode of N2 is closer to the
% way a stock car handles. All the rest of the compnents are still there,
% damage, yellows, setups ect. The only dif between sim and arcade N2 is the
% handling of the car.

I think the arcade mode makes the car handle more the way one would
assume a real Winston Cup car handles when driven by a Pro.  That's why
they are Pro's, they make it look easy.

<snip>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

MC:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

R:

Now this could be, so lets assume your right for this argument. I've taken
this into account many times as you say above. Then by being a game is it
better to release a product where the majority of average racers can feel
like pro's? Or where again only a few people can ever be pro's racing it?
Not really gonna answer this one but it's a viable question that I assume
they ponder when creating a game. I'm assuming the sales dept. want's the
one where average player can race great. Also I want to reiterate then the
Pro's (Jeff Gordon) should be able to pickup the game and without much
adjusting can run great around the track. That didn't happen. Also even
though magna-traction N2 is easier to drive it doesn't make it where you
don't have to be a good driver, there is still a lot of room for being a
better driver you just won't get hug lap gaps between great and average like
you do in sim. Maybe .1 to .2 tenths per lap.

QBM

That's an arrogant line, Peter. All people are not good enough at most
things. Why shouldn't we persue the pastimes we enjoy, huh? I bet you're a
better racer than me, but I bet I'm better than something than you. So don't
say I suck because I enjoy TOCA.
Anyway what counts as a sim and who is the authority to say. It's a
linguistic issue and not wheteher or not you can do this circuit in this or
that time. TOCA seems real enough to me. The cars are the 1997 ones in
phenomenal detail. The tracks are realistic. The noises are great. But
there's no dirt on the floor and the engine is immortal. So who gives a
flying f***? But it's hard, oh so very hard, to get your lap times into the
top ten times on http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/street/sc32/toca/. So it's
still a challenge. I like F1RS and GP2 but in terms of audio-visual
simulation TOCA leaves them both on the grid.
You play and rave about whatever 'sim' you choose and I'll respect you right
to do so.

Damage model. Is there a damage model on TOCA?

Hi,

Yeah, I was, but I couldn't remember that you were the originator and was too
lazy to look.

I disagree with you about set ups though. They p*** me off because I want to
race. I see the program as the mecanics as well as the physics, track etc.
Rickard Rydell doesn't set up his own gear ratios though I accept he's part of
the decision as to what they should be. But he's a pro on a real car and I'm an
***ed hobbyist who just wants a bit of fun racing. Tyres though? Yeah I can
accept them as acceptable setup. Actually it's it the setup not the difficulty
of what some call real sims that I don't like. It does take longer to get to
grips with the harder games but I can live with that.

Why do some people object to seeing Arcade Mode on a sim? What does it matter?

I've never played N2 - it's hard to find in the UK. Anyone know where?

PJ

Hi BH or R or QBM (now I am confused)
I ought to explain that as a relative newby to this group I was unaware that
TOCA wasn't considered as a sim. Now I'm not unaware, just amazed. Because
you're later posts showed you to be pro-TOCA I hadn't thought of you as the
originator because that post seemed anti-sims.
Tell you what, though, I don't like all this snobbery. The word arcade has taken
on a deprecatory meaning and it's almost as if you ought to get off ras if you
can't master GPL. Each to his own, and no one is any better than anyone else
black, white, tall, short, male, female, less or greater than 40 seconds at
Brands Hatch......
PJ

There's a lot of snobbery towards so-called "arcade" type games.
The line seems to be increasingly blurred between the 2 modes
anyway. To me Toca is as real as it gets in terms of car handling and gives
a very immersive experience, but there are still some aspects of it
which are not very realistic. I wouldn't label it "arcade", but then again
I wouldn't say it's a total simulator.

--

UK.

What I'm looking for now is a great rally sim along the lines of TOCA.
Colling McRae has to be a winner when it comes out, but I wonder if that will
have the same appeal as TOCA, bearing in mind that you are simply racing against
the clock ?
What's the general opinion on the rally sims mentioned above ? How do they stack
up
against TOCA on handling, graphics, sound, AI etc.

--

UK.

Yes I believe three settings I could be wrong and only two.

QBM

Richard Dawson says: "You gave the number 3 answer"

To me Toca is as real as it gets in terms of car handling and gives

Richard Dawson says" You gave the number 1 answer"

 but there are still some aspects of it

Richard Dawson says "You gave me the number two answer"

Now on to fast money....

QBM

Many people don't consider Taco a sim.

I guess because it's actually easy to learn (hard to master).

They want it to seem so complicated as they think it must be because their
hero's must be gods when they race the real thing.

I'm guessing...

I think Toca is a sim with great handling. I don't care if it's sim or
arcade I want the great handling.

QBM

From a purely racing point of view, it is a damn fine physical
simulation of Touring Car racing, the car dynamics are great, and the
cars appear to handle great based on the real thing?

RAS does actually stand for rec.autos.simulators, NB:- note the word
*SIMULATORS*

However, I personally, do not mind people discussing *any* racing games
or sims on RAS, (and I'm sure many others do not mind either).However,
it is *primarily* for the discussion of sims.

I do not think this is snobbery, as I too own many arcade type racing
games as well as sims, but I do try not to discuss the arcade racing
games here, there are other more appropriate newsgroups to do that in?

It's purely a matter of netiquette, eg:- discussing appropriate topics
in appropriate groups.

8-)

*Peter*    8-)
(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

I said I think most people (on RAS) would prefer a sim to be harder
rather than easier. By that I mean in comparison to the real thing, eg:-
F1 racing, and most other types of racing are supposed to be very hard
(to get consistently fast times), And I want the sim to reflect that.

Whereas arcade racing games are not necessarily as hard, cos they are
generally aimed at a mass market, and need to be *easier* to a certain
extent so that the public can jump in and start racing straight away?

Whereas, sims are generally a more specialised product? and the fact
that they have set-ups, qualifying, practice sessions, etc, means they
are by nature a more complicated and generally time consuming product.

Have you never seen an F1 car spin? or the wheels spin?
Theres nothing wrong with the grip levels in F1RS? I assume you mean
there is too much wheelspin? you can alter this by many means:

1) Use an analogue controller rather than a digital one.
2) Be gentle when using your controller, eg:- floor it and you will
wheelspin, just as you would in a *real* car.
3) Change the set-up to reduce wheelspin, eg:- by setting higher lower
gear ratios.

What!!!! no way at all is that correct. I have had F1RS since it was
released just before Christmas 1997, and I've had the GPL demo since a
couple of days after it was released. I have probably driven around,
maybe 120 hours in F1RS? and probably around 80 hours in GPL?

No way is there better tracion in GPL, one of the great challenges is to
complete a fast lap without losing it cos there is so *LITTLE* grip in
GPL. If F1RS is set-up correct it has loads of traction, (or it
simulates traction anyway) as it should. I think perhaps you do not have
a good set-up for F1RS?

I don't think you have to practice *forever* either? I do think to
become good at driving sims you do need to put in the time. But once you
have learnt the basic techniques you can then just get on with the
driving.

A good example is GP2. I have had this sim since it came out (about two
years ago?) and have put in *many* hundreds of hours, and now think I am
quite good, *not* the best by any means, but quite good nether the less.
I have not driven GP2 for a month or so, mainly cos I was spending most
of my time driving GPL! Then I decide to give GP2 a go, I pick the
Montreal track, cos the Canadian GP was the next one, and after *only* a
couple of laps I beat my all time fastest lap record?

I did not have to put in endless hours, cos I've already done the hard
work over the last two years or so, I can now just start up the sim, and
drive.

I think this equates to what I just said about GP2 above. Most racing
drivers *have* put in many hundreds of hours learning their trade,
honing their skills, practising their techniques, and after a while you
are a good driver. Now they do not need to put in the hundreds of hours,
they can just maybe do a few laps every now and again. F1 drivers *DO*
spend some time, testing, practising, developing the cars, etc. Once
again it is *not* hundreds of hours, cos they are already great drivers,
but they still need *some* practice?

Yes it would, but there is *always* a compromise between an out and out
sim, which most people are gonna find too hard to drive, or an easier
driving model, generally accepted as being arcade. Ideally all driving
games/sims should have *both* options, eg:- all the damage & set-up
options and harder driving levels (eg:- semi-pro, pro, ace, etc) for
those that want them, and all the driving aids that make driving easier
(eg:- driver help aids like auto braking or auto gear changing, no
damage or set-up options, easier driving levels) for those that want
them.

8-)

*Peter*    8-)
(NB: remove asterix to e-mail)