"Ian" <ianm2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fk6hhu8021eulepj5gvinh57vhq4vuujr0@4ax.com...
> "David G Fisher" <davegfnos...@home.com> wrote:
> >What bothers me about JPM is more his fan's hyping of him since day 1,
and
> >the way they put down other drivers in doing so.
> You know, David, I don't disagree with everything you say about
> Montoya. The thing that gets me though is the lack of objectivity and
> obvious anti-Montoya bias that infects your posts. In your eyes, the
> man can do no right and others can do no wrong, and every incident
> that happens on the racetrack is somehow evidence of the fact that JPM
> is a second-rate hacker who has no place in Formula One.
Never said anything even remotely like that. In the post you repled to I
once again said I do like him.
> Over the
> past few races (most notably Monaco and Montreal - two tracks where he
> didn't exactly shine last season!), JPM acquited himself quite
> admirably (in my opinion), yet you don't have anything to say about
> it. But just let there be some whiff of controversy (as at the Ring),
> and you're back on your soapbox with the same old "See! See! I told
> you! He always makes mistakes! He's not as good as his teammate!"
> And on and on.
In case you haven't noticed, quite a lot of people seem to be critical of
him right now. I wouldn't feel the need to say anything if it weren't for
all the hype, and the criticism of RS that comes with it, which the facts
don't support.
> >Out of the six top drivers (MS, RB, RS, JPM, DC, KR) only one seems to be
> > having trouble avoiding incidents on the track over the past 26 races.
> One of the more questionable of your comments. Granted, he's been
> involved in a few over the past year and a half and some have
> obviously been of his own doing, but he is far from being the only
> one.
He's been involved in more than a few over the past 26 races. Another poster
at rec.autos.sport.f1 said the following: "So, Montoya bumped into MS while
passing him in Brazil last year, ran
MS off the road when he attempted to pass in Austria last year, crashed
with MS in Sepang, ran into the back of MS in Brazil, ran into Ralf while
being passed yesterday and finally took Coulthard and himself out of
the race, rather than concede the position."
Those certainly aren't all of his incidents, but still more than a few.
>Monaco and Montreal last year were two of his more obvious
> unforced errors, but in an effort to be at least a bit objective,
> these COULD be chalked up to being an over-exuberant rookie trying to
> find his limits. But, you have argued in the past, he was NOT a
> rookie, since he had already driven two seasons in CART and had spent
> time as an F1 test driver. Well, CART is not F1 and driving around a
> deserted Barcelona or Valencia or Estoril all by yourself in the
> middle of February is hardly the same as driving in a Grand Prix. If
> you're going to compare apples to apples, you have to at least
> acknowledge Ralf's rookie season in the Jordan when he spent as much
> time in the gravel traps as he did on the track.
Age, and experience in an open wheel race car, especially at the level of
CART, counts for a lot..
> To return to this year, there was the Ralf/Rubens first corner
> incident at Melbourne. Who was to blame here? You could argue that
> neither was to blame, that it was a racing incident. Or you could
> argue that both were equally to blame, Rubens for moving over, Ralf
> for not lifting.
I'm a Ferrari fan, but RB moved twice to defend his position, which is
supposed to be against the rules. It's also something that's even more
dangerous to do at the first corner after the race starts.
>I'm not making any judgement call on this one.
> However, one thing I know for sure is that if it had been Montoya
> behing the wheel of the Williams, you would have found some excuse to
> blame it on him and pillory him for his impatience.
If RB did it to JPM, it still would of been RB's fault.
> How about Ralf's
> unforced error at Barcelona where JPM had narrowed the gap down to
> less than a second on the previous lap and Ralf folded like a cheap
> tent under the pressure from his teammate, spun off and subsequently
> retired? And last weekend, Michael made a mistake and spun off
> at the Ring. Granted, he was able to continue, but a mistake is still
> a mistake, even though in this case there were no race-ending
> consequences and no-one else was involved. And one of the constants
> that I've noticed about Friday practice sessions this season is that
> both Sato and Coulthard will spin off at some point during the day.
> Yet, you contend that Montoya is the only one of the leading six who
> causes accidents? He's been involved in three this season (Sepang,
> Brazil, and Nurburging). Has he been completely blameless in all of
> these incidents? Nope, I would never argue that. But, has he been
> 100% responsible for all of these incidents? Nope, I wouldn't concede
> that either.
You're right. RB was the cause of one accident which involved another car.
JPM has caused four in nine races this season.
> One of the other contentions that you make is how much better and
> faster Ralf is than his teammate, and what a superior season he is
> having. Sorry, but I just don't see it. Although Ralf has
> out-pointed JPM 30-27 thus far, this doesn't take into account the
> fairly-certain 12 points JPM lost at Monaco and Montreal due to
> mechanical failure.
RS has had mechanical problems too. Had to be rought into the pits an extra
time at Montreal due to fuel rig problems.
> From my perspective, Ralf has been a major
> disappointment, he's been strangely subdued and content to plod around
> and scavenge what points he can. His aggression has been seriously
> lacking, and while this may be fine in a second-tier team like Jordan
> or Renault it does not seem to fit the Williams mold. Sure, he won at
> Sepang, but realistically he probably would not have done so had it
> not been for the MS/JPM incident at the first corner or Rubens' blown
> engine. Hey, luck plays a part in Formula One and I'm not begrudging
> him his victory, but let's look at it for what it really was. The
> drivers of THAT race were definitely JPM and MS who stormed through
> the field to finish 2nd and 3rd respectively after the early incident.
> And then there was the afore-mentioned unforced error in Spain. What
> was THAT all about? Maybe he was upset because of the suicide bombers
> in the Middle East, or maybe his kid had diaper rash? Hey, that makes
> about as much sense as the excuses for his sub-par performances at the
> end of last season. You go on and on about his "brilliant" passing
> move on JPM in Turn Two at the Nurburgring, yet you don't mention that
> on the next lap he rolled over and played dead to let his brother go
> through (at least Montoya made Micheal work for the position!),
He didn't roll over an play dead. There was nothing he could do to stop a
much faster MS except maybe try something completely stupid like swinging
his car wildly in front of MS, and cause an accident like JPM. He's smart.
Doing something dumb may have made people with small balls happy, but that's
not the objective.
>> As I said, I don't disagree with some of the things you've said about
> Montoya. Hey, I admit I like the guy.
So do I.
>If nothing else, he's
> injected a measure of excitement into what has, you must admit, been a
> pretty boring season as far as racing at the front of the field is
> concerned. Has he made mistakes? Definitely, no doubt about it. The
> thing I take issue with is your unwillingness or inability to see past
> your anti-Montoya biases. You always seem to mention the facts which
> support your position, while conveniently ignoring those which don't.
The only facts that matter are qualifying and race results, and how many
crashes or unforced errors a driver makes. Race results matter the most
obviously. Last year, RS was the better qualifier and had the better race
results, with less crashes. That's a fact. Other, younger, first year
drivers manage to outperform their older, more experienced teammates in auto
racing. As for htis year, RS has the better race results so far but JPM has
a 5-4 advantage in qualifying (I'll forget about the hard tires issue). JPM
though is still causing more than his fair share of accidents. At BEST, JPM
is still a little below RS this year, which means he has not lived up to the
hype. Now you understand my point. I doubt things will change much in the
last eight races between them, unless one has bad luck with mechanical
failures. They are both about the same talent wise, with RS being the
smarter driver. Things could change in the last eight races, but it will
probably be due more to mechanical failures or bad luck.
> You say you're upset with the hype that he's engendered since his
> arrival in F1? Well, what the hell do you expect??? He arrived with
> "name value" having won in F3000 (in quite spectacular fashion), won
> the CART championship (as a rookie) and won the Indy 500. Whatever
> value you place upon the latter two accomplishments, the fact remains
> that it got his name known, both in the racing world and in the
> mainstream. Not much different from the way that Jacques Villeneuve
> was hyped upon his arrival in F1 due to the same two accomplishments
> (and with the added value of being Gilles' son). And, yes, the same
> way that Ralf was hyped as the next great superstar on his arrival due
> to his last name. If you recall, the feeling at the time was that
> Ralf would never even have gotten a shot at F1 if his name had been
> Ralph Smith, and he certainly wouldn't have lasted beyond his
> incident-filled first season with Jordan. Hey, hype is to be expected
> and it's gonna be heaped upon those who arrive with name-value.
> Honestly, unless you're a fanatical devotee of the European
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