<SNIP>
<SNIP>
It may not have been posted here, but people around me aren't very happy
about it. I heard Mark's views first hand, e.g..
MS hatred has nothing to do with it per se... the way I see it is this: if
MS had been able to simply blow RB away he would have done so. Instead,
partially due to his spin, it was a hard graft to make up the time. The old
"lap quicker while other guy is in pits"-trick didn't work, so he was more
less stuck behind. Contrary to popular myth actually passing another car
without at least a 4 sec/lap speed advantage is not a foregone conclusion
(as happened due to the different fuel/tyre strategies between Ferrari and
Williams). An attentive and skilled driver, as RB is, can keep a slightly
quicker one behind for as long as he can remain error-free.
I think if Ferrari had allowed them to race there would have been two
possible outcomes : a wreck or something which looked like a let bye. Both
would have been bad for obvious reasons. Remember, Ferrari's largest
following are F1 fans, not race fans. I can see why JT asked them to hold
station and bring it home.
As a race fan, however, I can only accept this decision from "lesser" teams.
I could, e.g., understand Jaguar wanting to ensure a points finish for one
of their drivers by asking the other one not to attack. Big teams like
Ferrari, Williams and McLaren should play the game properly, IMO, as they
have the financial clout to do so. Playing to the crowd and the organising
body like Ferrari did yesterday is demeaning. The sad part is, of course,
it's going to work. I bet one of them will come out with a sort of "we're
even, from now on we fight" statement and all will be forgiven. Simply
sickening.
As and aside, the way I imagine the DEI cars "made sure" of Talladega has
more to do with both cars being under pressure from the rest of the field.
Making sure one of the drivers gets the victory in the face of stiff
competition is something quite different from arranging an unopposed
victory.
RS took advantage of JPM having to defend at the start, nice move indeed;
wouldn't expect anything less of him.
MS had a superior car, a weight advantage and is quite special at the wheel
too. Good pass, but "teaching a lesson"? -Come on. If anybody was teaching,
it was Ross Brown, not Michael Schumacher.
When it's gone it's gone... car control does not extend much beyond the
limit.
Bad examples. The "wrong" about Malaysia was assigning a penalty for a
racing incident and to the driver who'd suffered most from the incident to
boot. T1 Brazil they touched... so what? It's racing and both want to be the
top dog in F1.
Again: wrong conclusion. Both drivers raced for position and left eachother
room to work with. JPM slowed and turned in enough, but it still went pear
shaped. An incident as is bound to happen many times more in today's F1,
dominated by aero concerns and use of "strong in one direction" materials.
That said, JPM is taking a long time to "get smart". He's got to lose the
"never say die"-attitude, IMO, especially in the current Williams.
Jan.
=---
Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
David G Fisher
> McLaren : Senna and Prost
> Williams: Mansell and Piquet
> They batlted a lot, having even two seasons decided with crashs (Senna on
> Prost and then, Prost on Senna).
> The problem here is Ferrari and Schumacher. Until they allow the two to
> fight, we will have a one-man championship.
> Brian
> > > > How come no one is ***ing about MS letting RB have the win with 10
> > laps
> > > to
> > > > go?
> > > > Ferrari did the same thing as in Austria (as has been done thousands
> of
> > > > times in all series) except a little less obviously. More like how
> > Waltrip
> > > > let Earnhardt have Talladega.
> > > > I guess it's ok in racing to do this as long as Michael Schumacher
> isn't
> > > the
> > > > one who benefits. Just like I thought. Pure jealousy was the
> motivation
> > > for
> > > > the hysterics after Austria.
> > > > MS and RS tought JPM a few lessons today. Beautiful passes. JPM then
> > > caused
> > > > yet another accident when he hit DC. He has great car control??
Funny
> > how
> > > > people will *** at and try to blame MS for an incident like T1 at
> > > Malaysia
> > > > or Brazil which involve JPM, even though they were both clearly
JPM's
> > > fault.
> > > > When JPM does the same type of thing to DC today though, no one says
a
> > > word
> > > > because it's not MS who was the other driver, and therefor no bogus
> > > > opportunity to attack MS.
> > > > David G Fisher
> > > All I saw were two very slow Williams... I was howling with
laughter
> at
> > > the SpeedChannel announcers. Hobb's fake bravado with his recap of MS
> > > heroically racing through the field was hilarious...I even got my wife
> to
> > > watch and she HATES any racing... I do recall something that 'seemed'
> > like
> > > a race but only two cars took part.(and they weren't RED!)
> > > It was nice to see DC racing again....he pinched JPM nicely to the
> curb.
> > > If JPM had been a bad racer, he would have not moved into the curb and
> > both
> > > would have been wrecked anyway. I did see Ralfie cause a near-wreck
> also,
> > > running so slowly at the same turn 1 (where JPM hit DC) he forced
> > (fishie?)
> > > to spin rather than hit Ralf as Fishie passed JV.
> > > This was a fairly embarrassing race. The Ferrari's are sooooooooo
far
> > > ahead of the other marques that they could get away with staging the
end
> > > result. Until the other brands level the playing field some, there
is
> > > nothing to complain about.
> > > dave henrie
> > Dave - I think your last point is right on the mark. Moreover, until
> some
> > other teams become competitive with Ferrari, F1 is going to suck. You
> just
> > aren't going to get great racing when the top two cars are on the same
> team.
> > Todd
> 1 - "JPM then caused yet another accident when he hit DC. He has great car
> control??"
> 2- "Funny how people will *** at and try to blame MS for an incident
like
> T1 at Malaysia or Brazil which involve JPM, even though they were both
> clearly JPM's fault."
> > David G Fisher
> Enlighten us with your pearls of wisdom and explain how that was Juan's
> fault at Malaysia? Going off your logic we should blame MS for the
incident
> at Malaysia too - afterall it was the guy on the inside who lost control
NOT
> the person on the outside who gave room (DC yesterday and Juan at
Malaysia).
> Try to give posts without with your views on the incident rather than the
> driver behind the wheel.
> Rick
David G Fisher
> > JPM's Ring incident with DC (inside car spinning out) was different from
> the
> > Malaysia incident between MS and JPM (front wheel of inside car tangles
> with
> > outside car).
> > The Malaysia incident must be compared to the T1 incident between RS and
> JPM
> > at the Ring, where RS did the right thing and gave JPM enough room to
get
> > around the corner.
> > The DC/JPM incident at the Ring was a spin of the inside car because of
> worn
> > rear tires (according to the Williams team and JPM). Too much throttle
for
> > worn out tires.
> So? The malaysia incident was also down to driver error also - that of
> understeer from MS not taking into account heavy fuel loads and cold
tyres;
> oh but it's ok it's the almighty Michael and anything goes - even past his
> brother by the looks of yesterday's race. Zzzz
If he didn't think he had good control of his car then he could of backed
off long before he reached the curbing.
RS did race wheel to wheel with JPM in the first turn on lap 1 and made a
beautiful pass, even though JPM hit him there TOO.
Out of the six top drivers (MS, RB, RS, JPM, DC, KR) only one seems to be
having trouble avoiding incidents on the track over the past 26 races.
Excuses are getting silly.
BTW, I don't dislike JPM at all, I just get tired of hearing these myths
about him being so fast and having great car control. To this point, he
hasn't been an overall faster driver than RS in qualifying or in the races.
David G Fisher
David G Fisher
> <SNIP>
Achim
> >RB's joy looked very real on the rostrum - he didn't seem to care whether
it
> >was a handed win or a real one.
> Like a kid at xmas...<g>
I'd have wanted to hear your comments if you'd have been in MS' position ;-)
JPM in Brazil drove over-optimistic and needed a lot of help from MS for his
maneuver to work, else he'd have taken both of them out.
I think what happened in the months thereafter was that JPM built up a bit
of a history of rude driving towards MS, and at one point MS simply decided
that it's enough now and he'd just drive as unrelenting as JPM himself.
If we accept the Brazil move as 'just racing', then we need to accept that
decision as well.
Achim
I think DC's comments in this article are what some of us have been saying
about JPM since the beginning of last year. His supposed great car control
is more myth than fact. Overall, he also has not been faster in qualifying
than RS in the past 26 races.
http://www.dailyf1.com/en/news/news.php?id=1539
David G Fisher
In MS's position I wouldn't have taken the fight passed the entry point.
Just sit behind him for a couple of laps, wait for the Michelins to lose
their edge and blow him away. MS is usually a very calculating driver, but
JPM for some reason seems to give him "red mist". It appears to me he wants
to lead JPM, whether the racing situation actually demands it or not. But
that's just my impression, of course.
Did I suggest otherwise? -They both desperately wanted to be 1st to the
first turn and only nearly avoided ending their race there and then. With a
bit more luck something similar would have happened at Nurnburg between DC
and JPM. I mean, people contesting positions is what we watch racing for,
right?
Eh... I can't remember them coming together or having over the top passes
since Brazil. The Malaysia incident preceded the Brazil race, remember?
Not wanting to appear like an MS basher, but, IMO, MS has always driven like
this. Before him Senna drove like that. They just have low tolerance for
people ahead of them. ;-)
Jan.
=---
He shouldn't of pushed it to the limit in a vain attempt to keep DC behind
him. JPM also hit RS in T1, lap 1. Did you rea dthese comments by DC?
http://www.racesimcentral.net/'s car control and
decision making apparently isn't too highly regarded by the other drivers,
at least not right now.
JPM squeezed MS's car 3/4 of the way up onto the curbing, event hough JPM
would of been better off staying a little wide so he's better set up for the
next turn. DC gave JPM a ton of room in comparision.
I'm referring to where JPM hit MS from behind going into T4 (first turn
after long straight) and lost his front wing.
Read DC's comments. JPM was flat wrong to try to hold him off at that point
of the race, and didn't execute the turn as good a she should of. JPM also
hit RS at the same corner on lap 1 as RS began his pass.
It seems like it's more of a, "My d**k is bigger than yours" type of
attitude.
David G Fisher
Now, all we can do is wait for 2003. :-(
Brian
> David G Fisher
> > Not true. Remember:
> > McLaren : Senna and Prost
> > Williams: Mansell and Piquet
> > They batlted a lot, having even two seasons decided with crashs (Senna
on
> > Prost and then, Prost on Senna).
> > The problem here is Ferrari and Schumacher. Until they allow the two to
> > fight, we will have a one-man championship.
> > Brian
> > > > > How come no one is ***ing about MS letting RB have the win with
10
> > > laps
> > > > to
> > > > > go?
> > > > > Ferrari did the same thing as in Austria (as has been done
thousands
> > of
> > > > > times in all series) except a little less obviously. More like how
> > > Waltrip
> > > > > let Earnhardt have Talladega.
> > > > > I guess it's ok in racing to do this as long as Michael Schumacher
> > isn't
> > > > the
> > > > > one who benefits. Just like I thought. Pure jealousy was the
> > motivation
> > > > for
> > > > > the hysterics after Austria.
> > > > > MS and RS tought JPM a few lessons today. Beautiful passes. JPM
then
> > > > caused
> > > > > yet another accident when he hit DC. He has great car control??
> Funny
> > > how
> > > > > people will *** at and try to blame MS for an incident like T1
at
> > > > Malaysia
> > > > > or Brazil which involve JPM, even though they were both clearly
> JPM's
> > > > fault.
> > > > > When JPM does the same type of thing to DC today though, no one
says
> a
> > > > word
> > > > > because it's not MS who was the other driver, and therefor no
bogus
> > > > > opportunity to attack MS.
> > > > > David G Fisher
> > > > All I saw were two very slow Williams... I was howling with
> laughter
> > at
> > > > the SpeedChannel announcers. Hobb's fake bravado with his recap of
MS
> > > > heroically racing through the field was hilarious...I even got my
wife
> > to
> > > > watch and she HATES any racing... I do recall something that
'seemed'
> > > like
> > > > a race but only two cars took part.(and they weren't RED!)
> > > > It was nice to see DC racing again....he pinched JPM nicely to the
> > curb.
> > > > If JPM had been a bad racer, he would have not moved into the curb
and
> > > both
> > > > would have been wrecked anyway. I did see Ralfie cause a near-wreck
> > also,
> > > > running so slowly at the same turn 1 (where JPM hit DC) he forced
> > > (fishie?)
> > > > to spin rather than hit Ralf as Fishie passed JV.
> > > > This was a fairly embarrassing race. The Ferrari's are sooooooooo
> far
> > > > ahead of the other marques that they could get away with staging the
> end
> > > > result. Until the other brands level the playing field some,
there
> is
> > > > nothing to complain about.
> > > > dave henrie
> > > Dave - I think your last point is right on the mark. Moreover, until
> > some
> > > other teams become competitive with Ferrari, F1 is going to suck. You
> > just
> > > aren't going to get great racing when the top two cars are on the same
> > team.
> > > Todd
Brian
> >RB's joy looked very real on the rostrum - he didn't seem to care whether
it
> >was a handed win or a real one.
> Like a kid at xmas...<g>
> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
What bothers me about JPM is more his fan's hyping of him since day 1, and
the way they put down other drivers in doing so.
David G Fisher
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > MS and RS tought JPM a few lessons today. Beautiful
> > > passes.
> > RS took advantage of JPM having to defend at the start, nice move
indeed;
> > wouldn't expect anything less of him.
> > MS had a superior car, a weight advantage and is quite special at the
> wheel
> > too. Good pass, but "teaching a lesson"? -Come on. If anybody was
> teaching,
> > it was Ross Brown, not Michael Schumacher.
> > > JPM then caused yet another accident when he hit DC. He
> > > has great car control??
> > When it's gone it's gone... car control does not extend much beyond the
> > limit.
> He shouldn't of pushed it to the limit in a vain attempt to keep DC behind
> him. JPM also hit RS in T1, lap 1. Did you rea dthese comments by DC?
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/'s car control and
> decision making apparently isn't too highly regarded by the other drivers,
> at least not right now.
> > > Funny how people will *** at and try to blame MS for an
> > > incident like T1 at Malaysia or Brazil which involve JPM,
> > > even though they were both clearly JPM's fault.
> > Bad examples. The "wrong" about Malaysia was assigning a penalty for a
> > racing incident and to the driver who'd suffered most from the incident
to
> > boot.
> JPM squeezed MS's car 3/4 of the way up onto the curbing, event hough JPM
> would of been better off staying a little wide so he's better set up for
the
> next turn. DC gave JPM a ton of room in comparision.
> >T1 Brazil they touched... so what? It's racing and both want to be the
> > top dog in F1.
> I'm referring to where JPM hit MS from behind going into T4 (first turn
> after long straight) and lost his front wing.
> > > When JPM does the same type of thing to DC today though,
> > > no one says a word because it's not MS who was the other
> > > driver, and therefor no bogus opportunity to attack MS.
> > Again: wrong conclusion. Both drivers raced for position and left
> eachother
> > room to work with. JPM slowed and turned in enough, but it still went
pear
> > shaped. An incident as is bound to happen many times more in today's F1,
> > dominated by aero concerns and use of "strong in one direction"
materials.
> Read DC's comments. JPM was flat wrong to try to hold him off at that
point
> of the race, and didn't execute the turn as good a she should of. JPM also
> hit RS at the same corner on lap 1 as RS began his pass.
> > That said, JPM is taking a long time to "get smart". He's got to lose
the
> > "never say die"-attitude, IMO, especially in the current Williams.
> > Jan.
> > =---
> It seems like it's more of a, "My d**k is bigger than yours" type of
> attitude.
> David G Fisher