rec.autos.simulators

The updrade provided some interesting results and insight, and I thought I
would share as I've seen others ask "what to do" recently.

The most pressing question for me was whether to upgrade the
processor/motherboard, or the Graphics Card.  After reading the comparisons
between the GeForce DDR I have, and the newer cards like the GTS and Radeon,
and seeing how they are faster but not tremendously so, I decided to go with
the Motherboard/Processor upgrade.  At least this way I was setting myself
up (hopefully) for the future.  My current ABIT KA7 is a Slot-A board and
it's a dead end :(

The Graphics boards I _could_ buy that would, possibly, make a huge
difference would be one of the GeForce II Ultra's or the GeForce III, but
both are out of my price range for a card, and I felt the cost to benifit
ratio simply didn't make sense.

First, the original system:
-------------------------
ABIT KA7
Athlon Slot-A 800Mhz
Creative GeForce DDR (Annihilator Pro)
Hercules Game-Theater XP Sound Card/Breakout Box
Kenwood 72x True-X Zen CD Rom Drive
Intel In-Business 10/100 NIC Card
512MB Micron CAS3 PC133 SDRAM
Dual-Boot Windows 2000SP1 and Windows 98OE

Now, the new system:
-----------------------
ASUS A7V-133
Athlon Thunderbird 1.2Ghz (The new 266fsb C Stepping model)

The rest stays the same.  Only the MB and Processor were changed.

I'll cover some specifics about the upgrade in a bit, but first the results
in N4.  As always, "Your Mileage May Vary" :)

Simply put, I didn't think I would see the improvements anywhere near what I
got.

My frame rates in N4 at least DOUBLED!

I went from 25-30fps average to 60-70fps average.  I am _very_ happy about
this :)

This proves one thing some of us have suspected all along.  N4 is just as
processor dependant as it is Graphics Card dependant.

Something else interesting is that changing from full mirrors to partial
mirrors doesn't have the huge impact it used to.  I used to drop 8-12fps
when changing from partial to full mirrors.  Now, it only costs me 3fps if
that.

Now, a little more about the upgrade...

It was, unfortunately, not trouble-free.

As I mentioned, I dual boot Win2K and Win98OE (original edition, I despise
Win98se).

The Windows 98 install went without a hitch.  I also used the new VIA 4in1
4.28 drivers.

The Win2K installation was very problematic, however.

The first problem was during the install.  During the Character Mode
install, and after all the little drivers were loaded, the standard "Loading
Windows 2000" message would come up, it would scan the keyboard, and the
system would hang.  I tried various cables, BIOS Settings, etc... to no
avail.

This same thing happened when Win2K first came out and I had a Kenwood 42x
ZEN CD Drive.  Same EXACT problem.  At that time (it was just over a year
ago) it was deemed by Kenwood/Microsoft that the 42x model of this drive was
not Win2K compliant, and as far as I know it never was fixed.  I fixed that
situation by buying the 52x model, which worked fine.

About 5 months ago, I upgraded to the 72x model.

I've been using that drive with Win2K and the ABIT KA7/Athlon 800 since then
without any troubles out of Win2K.

As unlikely as it was, but since I had seen this before, I removed the
Kenwood 72x and installed my DVD ROM drive from the server instead.

Voila!

Win2K now proceeded to the first install screen like it was supposed to.

I have no idea why it became a problem again, all of a sudden.  However,
these Kenwood ZEN drives have always been bleeding edge, and have been the
root of weird compatibility issues since they came out.  Oh, well.  It's in
the server now, and the DVD drive is in the client machine.

The second problem with Win2K was with the new 4in1 drivers (with and
without the IDE Busmaster Driver installed).

Major hard freezes (the kind necessitating a hard reset) abounded.

PowerDVD couldn't play 60 seconds of video before freezing.

I couldn't even install Visio 2000 Enterprise.  It would hang at the first
install screen.  Weird, huh?

I yanked out the 4.28 4in1 drivers and went back to the tried-and-true 4.25a
version.

Both problems were resolved.

I am not convinced that the 4.28 drivers are a 'quality' version for Windows
2000.

So, that's the quick & dirty.  The performance improvements exceeded my
wildest expectations, and I'm very happy with it.

Make sure you have a good heatsink/fan and GREAT case cooling.  I used the
GlobalWin FOP32-1 Fan/Heat Sink.  These 1.2 Athlons run HOT!

Finally, I have to say that this ASUS A7V133 is the FASTEST posting and
booting MB I've ever seen.  It's so damned quick that I don't even have a
chance to read the information it's putting on the screen at boot :)

-Larry

I have a similar system (built about a month ago, same mobo and cpu, with
GF2 ULTRA vid card) but run it on Win98SE.

Couple questions and notes:

1.  The final version, VIA Chipset Drivers (4.29final) were released last
Friday (see my post above for DL site), and they work better than the
5.25a's.  I also had problems with the 4.28's....none with the 4.29's, and a
10% jump in th 3DMark2000 scores...to nearly 9000.

2.  Are you OC'ing the cpu?  If not...do you plan too?  If, "yes"....how did
you set it up to OC (this is my next "project")?

3.  Are you OC'ing the vid card?  If not....the Nvidia cards OC "no
sweat"....I use Coolbits (I think that's the name?)....dl at several Nvidia
"Tweak" sites.....its a popular OC tool.  I'll send you my OC
settings...they are very stable and rock.

That was a smart choice.......not to upgrade the vid card at this time.
Now, you have a perfect platform to receive the GF-3.  Start saving your
nickles, dimes...and oh, $10 bills! ....lol....  I'm thinking $700 big ones
for that baby.

If you'd like to keep in touch (since we are building/tweaking similar

me an email and I'll "book" yours and we can keep each other updated on
drivers and tweaks we find that are succesful.  If you haven't OC's your
Athy yet....we can do that "project" together maybe?

Regards,

Tom Pabst

PS:  N4 stats:  Run 1600x16, all detail sliders to max (OpenGl) = 70-90's
FPS, full fields...no fsaa, no "refresh" sync, make sure you set your
desktop to 16bit color too.  "Jaggies" are minimal......can run 2080x16 with
mid 40's FPS, but "jaggies" not significanly reduced to warrant that res.  I
may try 2x2 fsaa when I OC the cpu....see what happens?

Thanks for the info!

I have to fall back a bit and say that while I _thought_ the 4.25a's had
resolved my PowerDVD issues, it turns out that it hasn't.  PowerDVD is back
to hard locking the system as soon as it touches a DVD.

I experimented with this a bit to make sure it wasn't the 686B that was
causing the issue.  I moved the drive to the (currently unused) on-board
Promise ATA-100 controller (configured as a standard ATA-100 and btw... the
A7V100 manual has the jumpers and instructions printed backwards for this).

Still had the exact same problems.  Since there are no problems in Win98OE,
I've determined that, in it's current state, Win2k simply doesn't like the
new KT133a/686B chipset configuration.

Of course, there is always the possibility that this is a Win2k/BIOS
combination issue.  We all know how those BIOS's go :)

I did some more experimenting with the Kenwood as well.  I tried it on the
Promise ATA-100 controller, and it had the same exact problem there.  During
the character mode phase of Win2K installation, and right after it loads the
drivers and presents the "Setup is loading Windows 2000", it freezes the
system hard after scanning the keyboard.

Again, this points to a problem with Win2k and the KT133a/686B chipset.

Oddly, and and do NOT understand this at all, if I set the Kenwood to slave,
and slave it off of the Hard Drive on the same IDE channel, it works!  I
have no idea what this is supposed to tell me though :)

Answers to your questions:

1.  Yes, I just learned about these 10 minutes ago :)  I'm going to try them
tonight, but not until I ghost the machine just in case :)  There is also a
a Pre-SP2 update from Microsoft that just appeared on the scene at
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?ReleaseID=22161.  This Hotfix
enables ATA-100 support under Win2K, and along with the VIA 4.29's I'm
hoping that it resovles everything :)

2.  No, I'm not overclocking.  Who needs to at 1.2Ghz DDR :)  I've always
placed stability over absolute performance in my machines.  I can understand
why it's fun to play with though :)

3.  No, not overclocking the GeForce DDR either.  I actually did this once,
very mildly, and ended up sending the card to Creative to be fixed because
it ate the DDR RAM on the board.  Overclocking and my luck do not mix :)  I
only overclocked it by tad, and ended up with the "Dots-O-Death" until it
was fixed/replaced.

What Rev of  the A7V133 did you get?  Mine is the 1.04.  There is a 1.05
rev, but it seems that only those without the onboard audio have that one.
I also read a message on the ASUS board that someone just got a 1.06 Rev.
Who can keep up with this stuff :)

Also, how is the Chipset fan on your KT133a doing?  I'm hearing of a major
failure rate of this Fan on the ASUS board.  Apparantly, Toms Hardware says
the Fan isn't even necessary (are you THAT Tom Pabst???) and even so, most
are replacing it with an Orb or something for $8 instead of messing with a
replacement from ASUS.

Mine is ok for now, but I'm not kidding myself that it will stay that way.
Some have had failures within 24 hrs!

I'm going to crank all of the N4 settings up tonight and see how it works
out.  If I can do that, and stay above 40fps, I'll be quite happy.

I also want to install and test SCGT.  I remember when I upgraded to the
Athlon 800/GeForce DDR SCGT became so fast it was a totally different
experience.  Probably won't be able to drive it at all now :)

-Larry