rec.autos.simulators

by **Brian Oste** » Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:02:36

>>I cannot understand this reluctancy to having a rulebook ??!!??
>>In my book we either have a set of rules or *anything goes* - there is no in
>>between. If we dont race by the same rules - which we all CLEARLY DON'T - we
>>will have yellow upon yellow flag...

>I think something that would be interesting instead of "dont' pass
>until the backstretch" or "no racing back to the yellow" would be
>keeping everything aligned with the real rules of NASCAR but penalize
>people for repeatedly doing bonehead things. If someone is racing
>back under yellow and causes an accident by being overagressive, the
>person in charge will note that while reviewing the replay and levy an
>appropriate penalty.

Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
island.

Brian Oster

by **Brian Oste** » Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:18:30

Yes, I believe it was. Too me, the difference was that I was getting
a lot more draft off-line when in the middle of a tight 20 car pack
and was there for entering the turns about 5-10 mph faster off-line
than on-line. Also with the AI cars, I entered turns with a car just
in front of me and a car a few inches on the outside which seemed to
take the downforce away from the front causing it to push real bad at
turn entry. Off-line tended to have more seperation.

Brian Oster

>I may have missed some info in an earlier post, so apologies if the answer
>to this question is further up this thread, but was the weather the same ?

>> Eldred,

>> I'm not talking about the tape.

>> I'm talking about the overall feel of the settings. There is a distinct
>> difference between the NR2002 FAST Setup and the Fixed Setup we ran
>> yesterday. At least on my machine, and since you can't alter the canned
>> setups, I know mine wasn't changed.

>> It wasn't the tape. It was much more than that.

>> Offline, the FAST setup is slimy, pushy and really dismal to drive.

>> Online, it was quite reasonable and controllable.

>> I don't understand the difference, but it was there and it was much more
>> than the tape.

>> -Larry

>> > >I think it came out better than expected because we were 1)Ready for it
>> due
>> > >to the pre-race discussions and 2)The actual online FAST setup was
>> totally
>> > >different than the Offline FAST setup. Why I don't know, but it was a
>> good
>> > >thing :)

>> > The only thing that was changed was the tape - from 45% to 40%. If it
>> made
>> > THAT big of a difference in the feel of the car, *I* sure couldn't feel
>> it...

>> > Eldred
>> > --
>> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
>> > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

>> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Neil Charlto** » Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:44:37

I had a similar but opposite effect in the HOG race at Kansas on Friday.
Practised long and hard offline (even had a 2 stopper off to a tee). When I
went online the thing was outrageously loose everywhere (even with no
traffic). I saved the setup and recorded weather etc and compared it with
fixed fast after the race. Weird thing was, all setups and settings were
exactly the same!!!

Even weirder, a few days later I did some more at Kansas and the fast setup
now felt as loose as it had online a few days before. Absolutely nothing
concerning the computer or game had been changed in the meantime. I feel
there may be something very strange going on here.

Anyone else ever experienced this?

Regards

> Eldred,

> I'm not talking about the tape.

> I'm talking about the overall feel of the settings. There is a distinct
> difference between the NR2002 FAST Setup and the Fixed Setup we ran
> yesterday. At least on my machine, and since you can't alter the canned
> setups, I know mine wasn't changed.

> It wasn't the tape. It was much more than that.

> Offline, the FAST setup is slimy, pushy and really dismal to drive.

> Online, it was quite reasonable and controllable.

> I don't understand the difference, but it was there and it was much more
> than the tape.

> -Larry

> > >I think it came out better than expected because we were 1)Ready for it
> due
> > >to the pre-race discussions and 2)The actual online FAST setup was
> totally
> > >different than the Offline FAST setup. Why I don't know, but it was a
> good
> > >thing :)

> > The only thing that was changed was the tape - from 45% to 40%. If it
> made
> > THAT big of a difference in the feel of the car, *I* sure couldn't feel
> it...

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:54:57

>I may have missed some info in an earlier post, so apologies if the answer
>to this question is further up this thread, but was the weather the same ?

The weather has been the same for all the races. 70 deg, no wind.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Eldre** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:54:57

>Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
>so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
>island.

You beat me to it...<g>

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Ed Solhei** » Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:34:53

I noticed that... :-) but I didnt think it would do you much good.... My
'crew' said my gas was only good for 31 laps and that meant it was about 3
laps too early.. This is why I [almost alone?] pitted on our 2nd. yellow...
cause it meant I could do the distance with only 1 more stop - if needed...

I didn't expect the race to go green for any real lenghts time though....
another thing to take into the consideration is tirewear.... I had only
done about 5 laps at the track - so I had no idea how the car would handle
with 'shot' tires... The wear seemed to be pretty equal on all four so I
would expect the car to be a handful upon entry into corners... So easy to
loose the rearend..

Anyway, it was a good race and atleast the strategy I choose put me where i
wanted to be at the end... - namely at the front :-)

--
ed_

"Larry" said:

by **SimRace** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 01:45:31

> >> On re-starts with less then 10 laps to go, lap down cars should drive
> >> through the pit lane when the 1 to go is given so that only lead lap
> >> cars will be at the font. (I saw this one on a league's rules.
> >> Sounds good in theory, but I don't know how well it works in
> >> practice.)

> >> Brian Oster

> >you are really letting this racing stuff distort reality, nobody is gonna
do
> >that nonsense

> >in fact, you may be insane

> That's uncalled for. He's not insane, and you're just WRONG. I *have*
seen
> league rules that mandated it. Would you violate a stated league rule on
> purpose?

> Eldred

We have that rule in our league Eldred. It is in place since the sim does
not enforce the REAL NASCAR rule that mandates lead lap cars ONLY up front
on double file restarts with 10 laps or less to go. The only way to achieve
this online is to have the lapped cars pit (a drive through is fine) when
the pits open to them so all the lead lap cars can take their proper place
up front on the single file restart.

It isn't insane, its the real rule NASCAR uses though they just radio the
lapped cars and tell them to back up behind the lead lap cars. In the sim,
pitting is the only way to back the guys up without BF's being handed out
like candy.

by **Larr** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 05:56:18

I think so? Fixed 70 deg...

-Larry

> I may have missed some info in an earlier post, so apologies if the answer
> to this question is further up this thread, but was the weather the same ?

> > Eldred,

> > I'm not talking about the tape.

> > I'm talking about the overall feel of the settings. There is a distinct
> > difference between the NR2002 FAST Setup and the Fixed Setup we ran
> > yesterday. At least on my machine, and since you can't alter the canned
> > setups, I know mine wasn't changed.

> > It wasn't the tape. It was much more than that.

> > Offline, the FAST setup is slimy, pushy and really dismal to drive.

> > Online, it was quite reasonable and controllable.

> > I don't understand the difference, but it was there and it was much more
> > than the tape.

> > -Larry

> > > >I think it came out better than expected because we were 1)Ready for
it
> > due
> > > >to the pre-race discussions and 2)The actual online FAST setup was
> > totally
> > > >different than the Offline FAST setup. Why I don't know, but it was
a
> > good
> > > >thing :)

> > > The only thing that was changed was the tape - from 45% to 40%. If it
> > made
> > > THAT big of a difference in the feel of the car, *I* sure couldn't
feel
> > it...

> > > Eldred
> > > --
> > > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **jason moy** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 06:27:08

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:02:36 GMT, Brian Oster

>Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
>so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
>island.

This is just my idea, please don't take it seriously. In fact, don't
take any of my posts on this seriously, I really don't mean to sound
mean or harsh at all here, I'm just bouncing ideas off you guys.

Award a point for each offense:

1 point - Personal email from the race administrator. Not mean or
anything, just a "hey, be more careful".
2 points - Personal email from the race administrator. More stern but
still not necessarily rude or offensive. Just a head's up that they
need to watch themselves.
3 points - 1 week suspension
4 points - Off the Island

Every clean race removes 1 point from your total.

So if you make a mistake this week, and don't next week, you're back
to square one. 3 weeks in a row and have a fun week off. 4 weeks and
it was nice knowing you.

I don't find this to be too severe, in fact, it's probably not severe
enough, but I tried to consider that this is meant to be casual.

Jason

by **Brian Oste** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:48:30

>On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:02:36 GMT, Brian Oster

>>Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
>>so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
>>island.

>This is just my idea, please don't take it seriously. In fact, don't
>take any of my posts on this seriously, I really don't mean to sound
>mean or harsh at all here, I'm just bouncing ideas off you guys.

I wasn't trying to flame you, I was just pointing out that we have no
real way to penalize someone for a simple mistake like a league will
do, and to ban them may be a little too harsh. I made 2 dumb ass
moves in 15 laps at Coke, so should I be banned (don't answer that
Mike G.)?, but in the 8 or 9 previous races I did not cause a sigle
incident.

I think what it boils down to is this:
I believe Eldred said he is going to have an invite list and if
someone makes such an ass of them selves that we actually consider
banning them, it probably won't be too hard to come too a general
consensus on that since it would have to be some seriously offensive
driving (more than just the usualy mistakes that come with racing
hard). I don't think we need some long formal rule book and someone
to go through each week and make judgements over each incident and
assess demerits and smiley faces and track total demerits and
determine suspensions, etc. Common sense will prevail... and maybe a
little bit of fun along the way.

Brian Oster

by **Mike Grand** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:06:23

I don't think anyone should be banned, unless they intentionally wreck
and/or flame people.

--
Mike Grandy
www.precision-racing.com

> >On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:02:36 GMT, Brian Oster

> >>Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
> >>so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
> >>island.

> >This is just my idea, please don't take it seriously. In fact, don't
> >take any of my posts on this seriously, I really don't mean to sound
> >mean or harsh at all here, I'm just bouncing ideas off you guys.

> I wasn't trying to flame you, I was just pointing out that we have no
> real way to penalize someone for a simple mistake like a league will
> do, and to ban them may be a little too harsh. I made 2 dumb ass
> moves in 15 laps at Coke, so should I be banned (don't answer that
> Mike G.)?, but in the 8 or 9 previous races I did not cause a sigle
> incident.

> I think what it boils down to is this:
> I believe Eldred said he is going to have an invite list and if
> someone makes such an ass of them selves that we actually consider
> banning them, it probably won't be too hard to come too a general
> consensus on that since it would have to be some seriously offensive
> driving (more than just the usualy mistakes that come with racing
> hard). I don't think we need some long formal rule book and someone
> to go through each week and make judgements over each incident and
> assess demerits and smiley faces and track total demerits and
> determine suspensions, etc. Common sense will prevail... and maybe a
> little bit of fun along the way.

> Brian Oster

by **jason moy** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:18:09

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:48:30 GMT, Brian Oster

>I think what it boils down to is this:
>I believe Eldred said he is going to have an invite list and if
>someone makes such an ass of them selves that we actually consider
>banning them, it probably won't be too hard to come too a general
>consensus on that since it would have to be some seriously offensive
>driving (more than just the usualy mistakes that come with racing
>hard). I don't think we need some long formal rule book and someone
>to go through each week and make judgements over each incident and
>assess demerits and smiley faces and track total demerits and
>determine suspensions, etc. Common sense will prevail... and maybe a
>little bit of fun along the way.

I think a voting system is a great idea. All other rules should be
those imposed by the sim.

It would be great if there were an optional voting system actually
built into N2k3, similar to the ones in FPS games. I can't imagine it
being used during an actual race (I'd probably want it to stop working
when the green flag flew), but you could kick people out of casual
pickup races before the race started if they were causing problems in
practice or warmup.

Jason

by **Larr** » Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:28:20

Agreed.

Banning/Muzzling is highly abused these days.

-Larry

> I don't think anyone should be banned, unless they intentionally wreck
> and/or flame people.

> --
> Mike Grandy
> www.precision-racing.com

> > >On Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:02:36 GMT, Brian Oster

> > >>Again, what exactly would that penalty be? We don't race for points,
> > >>so the only penalty that could be assessed is voting someone off the
> > >>island.

> > >This is just my idea, please don't take it seriously. In fact, don't
> > >take any of my posts on this seriously, I really don't mean to sound
> > >mean or harsh at all here, I'm just bouncing ideas off you guys.

> > I wasn't trying to flame you, I was just pointing out that we have no
> > real way to penalize someone for a simple mistake like a league will
> > do, and to ban them may be a little too harsh. I made 2 dumb ass
> > moves in 15 laps at Coke, so should I be banned (don't answer that
> > Mike G.)?, but in the 8 or 9 previous races I did not cause a sigle
> > incident.

> > I think what it boils down to is this:
> > I believe Eldred said he is going to have an invite list and if
> > someone makes such an ass of them selves that we actually consider
> > banning them, it probably won't be too hard to come too a general
> > consensus on that since it would have to be some seriously offensive
> > driving (more than just the usualy mistakes that come with racing
> > hard). I don't think we need some long formal rule book and someone
> > to go through each week and make judgements over each incident and
> > assess demerits and smiley faces and track total demerits and
> > determine suspensions, etc. Common sense will prevail... and maybe a
> > little bit of fun along the way.

> > Brian Oster

by **Eldre** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 05:16:54

>Agreed.

>Banning/Muzzling is highly abused these days.

I already *said* I was SORRY! Geez... :-)

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Larr** » Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:50:31

It took me a while to understand what the HELL you were talking about :)

I assure you that incident wasn't even in my mind at the time. I was
referring more to the Sierra servers, and especially the Papy servers
durning the period they did that "BOSS can eject" experiment.

I'm glad they took that away. Guys were ejecting people just because they
were ahead of them on the track, and they wanted to win any way they could!

-Larry

> >Agreed.

> >Banning/Muzzling is highly abused these days.

> I already *said* I was SORRY! Geez... :-)

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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