rec.autos.simulators

Eldred
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There is(or was) a rules list on John Simmons' webpage.  That's what we're
supposed to be following.  But I'll comment on a couple below:

When I started the server, I was inforcing***pit view.  But I have stopped
using forced***pit.  Some people can't drive in***pit view, for whatever
reason.  Also, if your hood is damaged, you need an outside view in order to
make it back to the pits.

I disagree with this.  Because of pit stop shuffling, it's very possible for a
slower driver to be in the middle of a bunch of fast drivers.  Forcing the
faster drivers to wait may mean that they lose touch with the lead cars.  Also,
if we go back to double-file restarts, the lapped cars will be even MORE of a
factor.

I say race back to the line, but use a bit of common sense.  If there's smoke
clouding the track, you certainly shouldn't be going "balls out" tryng to get a
spot back.

Common sense, I'd say.

I'm against extraneous chatting PERIOD.  The only messages that should be used
are the autochat messages, "sry", "np", etc.  If everyone maintains the
paceline speed(1-1.5 second separation), there doesn't need to be anything else
said.

Eldred
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Eldred
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--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
  http://www.paddedwall.org/john
DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons
DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development)
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RASCAR Roster
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Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting)
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If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
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=========================================================

As for the BF issue, it looks like if you are passing on the left you
should be OK.  If not, it is a bug that papy should address.

The BF issue would be the only reason I would support this, otherwise
if a guy wants to throw the dice... so be it.

Brian Oster

Forced***pit: I've suggested this for several reasons - but I do not see
it as a 'big issue' - if you people like to "cheat" - please do! <VBG!>

[Just incase anyone want to know what my arguments are;
1. Forced***pit view means everyone is playing within the same limits....
more importantly it will make us all aware of whatever visual-limits other
drivers may face.
2. Limited view because of damage is one lousy 'excuse' imho... When you've
got a damaged car, you slow down - peroid.]

As mentioned by Colin,  I've stolen this rule from the FFRL.... whilch I
pretty sure must be one of the cleanest (read: few yellows) Nascar racing
online-leagues on the net! I've been racing in online leagues that has used
'no passing rules' since the Hawaii days with Nascar Racing 1 and rules like
this has never - I repeat *never* -posed a problem as long as everyone play
by the same rules. There are lots of leagues that race with rules like
this - and it's done for a reason.
If everyone play by the same rules this is not a problem....   (or atleast
give it a try before you condem it down and out.)

Also: "Other kind of troubles" would be problems that are either clearly
visible or as notified by the unlucky driver. (We could also make a rule
staiting that drivers must notify their fellow competitors should they
experince problems - if that is an issue)

First a clarification:
I don't mean the drivers should stop or even brake once a yellow come out...
what I want is for people to stop *racing eachother*...  Once the *racing*
stops - the pressure to 'keep up' is gone and the risk of another incident
removed.

As for the exception to the rule: Again this is not a problem.
Most, if not all leagues that run with 'no racing to the line' rules, have
some sort of rule that allow drivers to race to the line in event of a late
race yellow / race finishing under yellow)

waved.

To clear up a possible misunderstanding: I did not intend to make the rule
sound like the drivers have to do a pitstop... I was merely trying to point
out what their priorities should be...
As for this 'rule' just being common sense and uncalled for... Yes,  that is
ture...  But having watched most of the race-replays, it looks like we could
need such a rule.

Again, with reference to Dave's incident / black-flag at 'Coke' last night..

I'm not against race-releated chatting during yellows... Sitting "quietly"
infront of the computer for up to 2 hours can be pretty tiresome for some.
But like I wrote, if you're not comfortable with it - dont do it. Beside
some might have vital information to share.

These are just my suggestion/draft to a set of rules...  You guys might have
additional rules you might want to see added..  please speak up if thats
so...

My point here is that we need a set of rules that everyone is aware of and
we *must* follow  - otherwise RASCAR is nothing more than "pick-up races
with a password".

Just for the record: I dont have any problems should RASCAR be turned into a
'invitations only' "league".
--
ed_

1) It ruins the competitive nature of the sport. Just because you're a
lap down, down't mean you can't keep up with or pass a lead-lap car. In
fact, I went down a lap at Dega a few months back because I passed some
cars that spun/wrecked against the outside wall on the front straight  
before the start/finish line and AFTER the green dropped. In fact, there
were a number of us penalized for that very thing, yet none of us were
off the pace.  Further, there's nothing more demoralizing in a race than
to realize that you'll NEVER get your lap back with rules like those in
place.  It's just bullshit.

2) It does not help anyone learn how to drive in the sim with more
realism.  What good is "no passing till the backstretch, single-file
restarts, or lapped cars must go down pit road before restart?  It
certainly does teach anyone anything.

Rules should be made to promote better driving in more realistic
circumstances with accomdation for the fact that we are racing online
with NO peripheral vision to speak of.  I want it to be as realistic as
possible within the constraints of the hardware/software.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
  http://www.paddedwall.org/john
DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons
DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/demons2
RASCAR Roster
  http://www.paddedwall.org/rascar
Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting)
  http://www.paddedwall.org/diecast

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

This is *not* stockcar racing - this is sim-racing.....  and there's a world
of difference! (Pardon the 'pun)

Although I'm a keen believer in realism - none of my suggested rules were
attempts to make other drive with more realistic settings.  What I want in a
fair race, where everyone play by the same rules and within the same
limitations.

It's quite clear that we all have *very* different views on racings and on
what's "allowed" and what's not - and this is *preciely* why we need a set
of rules!  Guidelines will not do the job.

--
ed_

So how is your point any different than mine?

Well, nobody wanted to call them "rules", and further, nobody appears to
want the job of stepping on peoples necks when they *** up.  I stepped
up to do it, and everyone reacted like I was the ***in anti-christ.

I've been suggesting that we have rules and closed membership for AT
LEAST 3 months. Again, nobody seemed interested.  Rules are useless if
we have open races that anyone can join (which is basically what we
have), becauyse the new guys can always beg off by whining about not
having seen any "rules".

About the forced***pit thing, it's IMPOSSIBLE to drive around watkins
glen or sears point safely AT ANY SPEED when your hood is pushed up
against your windshield.  On the other tracks, it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to
enter pit road safely because you can't see it coming.  Forced***pit
is NOT conducive to effective racing online.

--
=========================================================
Redneck Techno-Biker & "programming deity"
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
DeMONS/1 for Nascar Racing 3 & Nascar Legends
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
DeMONS/2 for Nascar Racing 4 and 2002 Season (in development)
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
RASCAR Roster
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Barbarian Diecast Collector (490+ cars and counting)
  http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

After the past few races, the only rule I want to see enforced right now is
this one. Did anyone check lap 62/63 yet from yesterday's race to see what
happened to me?

David G Fisher

That was pretty blatant. Never mind the car before driving on the inside
line (which makes it harder to keep in view), one has to keep up better than
that. Failing verbal communication and tapping being no option online, I
don't see what else you could have done to get the message across.

Obviously, Uwe was quite oblivious to your intentions and proceded to try
and make life hard for you. Most unfortunate.

Jan.
=---

I'll agree to this when I get my 360 degree computer monitor, so the
interior view is in any way realistic. Until then I will use the hood
view so I can get a much more realistic representation of the field of
view people get in real life, instead of getting a screen pillar at
about 5 degrees left of track center (which is what you might get if
you drive a car sitting in the back seats). On the hood view, when you
are looking straight ahead you can still see quite a bit of peripheral
view, such as the noses of cars outside you. Also, the***pit view
has virtual head movement which makes the dash fly all over the screen
if you spin on banking, for example. I find it much easier to judge
how much my car is sliding if my viewpoint is fixed to the car. I know
your head moves around in real life, but your eyes compensate and you
don't notice it too much, and sometimes my virtual head in NR2002 has
been *past* the steering wheel (admittedly when I have just punched a
hole in the wall).

Basically what I am saying is my window on the world of NR2002 is a
17" diagonal rectangle about 18" from my face, and already restricts
my view a great deal (when compared to driving a real car), and
covering up another half of that with a pointless dashboard is just
putting another block against driving safely.

We don't want any racing going on now, do we? If people can't race a
car in these conditions, they shouldn't be in RASCAR. I think these
two rules would probably destroy most of the experience. All
overtaking moves are risky, and the laps either side of a yellow are
better for overtaking, hence an even more elevated risk. I don't see
that punishing the people who *can* handle driving in these conditions
for the sake of those who can't is fair. I think if somebody is unsure
then they should just run up high on restarts and let everybody else
who is confident get on with the real racing.

Might be a problem if you can't *see* any other cars from the *forced*
***pit view. Another good reason for the hood view. But I agree with
this.

All the other points are fine by me.

Just my two cents.

Sascar does it, and it works very well.

Don Burnette

Brian Oster