rec.autos.simulators

                                                                Jimmy

  Julian,
  I was referring to trying a single game (or sim), even games like Quake,
Doom, Flight Simulator, ANYTHING really...
  I guess that's why they put MINIMUM requirements on the side of the box, and
not MAXIMUM....
  No, this has nothin' to with Hawaii.

                                                                        Jimmy

- Mike.

================================================================

= R.I.P. Scott Brayton: February 20, 1959 - May 17, 1996
= R.I.P. Jeff Krosnoff: September 24, 1964 - July 14, 1996
= R.I.P. Jim Chapman: January 24, 1916 - October 10, 1996
================================================================

I am not even referring to the simple fact that some of their programs
don't work on some machines. It is their take it and stick it attitudes
that bother me. Without the customers they have no business. They should
be gracious that we bought their product and yet what I have read in the
posts from this company, is that we are here for them and not the other
way around.

Now if they don't plan to support the customers and what they ask for,
then maybe thaey could at least offer them their money back. I have
enjoyed my products over the years and am quite satisfied. The difference
is that I haven't bought Nascar Racing 2. You see I could care less about
Nascar, but I can see where these people are coming from. I bought Indycar
2 in February 1996 and now we find out that Sierra has abandoned this
program only a little over a year. Thank god for this newsgroup or there
would never have been any updates on this product.

Just remember what Ghandi said and he did say it. You are here for the
customers. The customers are not here for you. We can spend our
entertainment dollars elsewhere and then where will your company be.
People in this newsgroup are not trying to pester you about issues. Some
of these questions come from  new people that have just started out on the
net and this may be the first time that they have asked one of these
questions that you have read a thousand times. So have some patience it
really does pay.

N2 is a finished product, with some flaws; N3 will address some of those
flaws, but it will probably not be PERFECT. Remember, "shipping" is a
feature too. N2 might be short something which really torques you, but
it's shipped, and lots of people are enjoying the best NASCAR simulator
available today.

On-going support for show-stoppers should always be a priority with
companies, but no company can afford to continually pour resources into
improving existing products for free. That's what the next rev is for.
Ship the one you've got, patch what NEEDS patched, and move on to
producing the next killer racing sim.

---Jim Sokoloff

Joe

As far as shipping being a feature thats about the silliest thing I've
heard yet in the AI argument.  Of course if you feel its a feature you
can bet you paid for that too.

On-going support for show-stoppers should always be a priority with

I agree that all companies should learn and apply remedies to  their
mistakes into new products but dont realease a half ass program
(knowingly) and then deny customers support for it.  When I say Half
ass I mean the sims really only good for one thing and thats online
racing.  It's very obvious that Papyrus/Sierra released the sim like
it is because they're more interested in getting NRO going in which
there will be no need for AI due to human drivers and I might add they
released it in time for the Christmas cahs in.  We're not dumb-asses
you know.  Then on top of that to have the General Manager himself
admit that they thoroughly tested N2 ( if they did then they certainly
knew it was screwed up.)  He also said they did their best with N2
certainly sounds to me like they knew it was there. Then he said "No
We're NOT going to fix it." You expect us to bow down and take that
lightly? Hell no!!  He also said "we will continue to raise the bar."
I believe they need to lower it a bit now they cant get over this
hurdle so why would they want to try to jump the next one? I'll tell
ya why because they've already got your money for N2.

The whole point is they knew it had problems when we bought it and we
didn't  but now that we do (which now they admit) they say too bad.
What the hell kind of customer support is that?

Ding,Ding Ding Ding (heard in background)

 is that you?

Sure, the AI has problems, and yes Adam has admitted that it has.  Would
you like him to do otherwise?  Should development on future products
cease so that the NASCAR2 AI can be fixed?  Well, I'm not alone in my
opinion: NASCAR2 is perfectly playable in its current condition.  Hey
guys relax, this is a game after all - it's not a military simulation
with billions of dollars spent on getting every aspect of it working
perfectly, and you probably spent less than $60 to own the best racing
package on a PC.  Not bad, I'd say.  Pretty much every game product on
the market today has its flaws.  Do you play Red Alert?  What about the
AI in this game?  Everyone I know thinks RA is a superb game - yes it
is, but don't tell me the AI is without its problems (sure it's neat
considering the real-time element, but there's a long way to go).  And
since my work revolves around Lotus Notes, cc:Mail and Exchange, I can
confidently say that complex business software is just the same - even
Lotus and Microsoft can't always squash the bugs, and we're in big money
territory here.  

I'm curious to know that given a certain number of designers, artists,
developers and an amount of cash, what your project outline for NASCAR 3
or Grand Prix Legends might look like.  How much of a resource (man
years) would you like commited to AI code, and what measures would you
have in place to ensure that at the end of the development cycle, that
your AI was left with no significant operational issues.  And how would
you KNOW that no bugs remained?  The answer is simple - you can't know.
At the end of development, the code is frozen and tested as much as
possible - the fatal bugs (crashes etc) must be fixed first, and then
gameplay issues, but you know, AI is such a complex element of a game
that you're just not going to fix it all - and fixing one aspect could
unknowingly***up something else that doesn't reveal itself until the
game goes out onto the market.  The bottom line is, once you reach the
deadline, you go with what you've got - it's the only way to survive.
Every deadline pushed back is money, and a great deal of money.  Added
to that you've then got producers, designers and artists sitting around
for weeks waiting for developers to fix the last product before a new
project can commence.  

The world is not as simple as you try to make out.  Yes you can always
learn from past mistakes, and Papyrus are as guilty of making mistakes
as the rest of them, but business is the driver and the issues must be
understood.

NRO is important to Papyrus, and yes, Christmas sales (late November,
early December) are signficantly higher than during the rest of the
year.  Bonus points if you can spot any other developers releasing
software on the run-up to the festive season.

The whole point is that there are some fantastic new simulations on the
horizon from Papyrus.  Wouldn't you like to experience new software
technology rather than keep on playing the old stuff?

My final point regards your comment that Adam isn't particularly
concerned about the quality of his products or the feedback from
Papyrus' customers.  Not true, because if you ever met the guy, you'd
know straight away that nothing could be further from the truth - the
software development business is such that if you're not completely
dedicated and enjoying what you're doing, you're in the wrong job...
more so when the company is primarily concentrating on one genre of
package, in this case racing simulation!

Mike Laskey
NASCAR 2 Racing s/w tester.

Looking at the differnce between he current N2 and the upcoming Grand Prix
Legends, I'd say there are quite a number of improvements that can be
incorporated into N3.

--

/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
/Ralph Williams      My real .sig file is in the shop getting repaired.\

/----------------------------------------------------------------------\

Bart & Scarecrow, I'm not going to initiate some flame war here, I know
you're both pretty close minded- But if you can develop a sim with AI
that has NO bugs, that'll be a first.  

Let me try to help you both understand what a simulation program is:
it's merely software, carrying out a predetermined, calculated or random
set of instructions.  It isn't human, therefore, it can't possibly think
like a human would in every situation.

Now, about NASCAR 2- I just completed a championship season without
using any of the official patches (I did use a pre-patch fix for
Atlanta).  I won a good amount of races and the points championship,
damage on, realistic mode, 100% AI.  No, not every situation was
resolved by the computer drivers exactly as would be in real life, but I
still had a lot of fun.  However, I did feel a great amount of realism
in the sim.  

Before you continue bashing Papyrus and its employees who jump in here
to communicate with you (unlike any other sim company), let's review
what Papyrus has accomplished for you, the gamer:

1989- Indianapolis 500, The Simulation- first PC based racing sim to
feature a full field of cars.  First PC based racing sim to create
incidents and mechanical failures by the AI opponents.

1993- IndyCar Racing- First PC based racing sim to feature a paintshop
so players could make their own cars.  First PC based racing sim to use
texture mapping to create realistic decals and designs on cars.  First
PC based racing sim to feature instant replay that lasted longer than 20
seconds.

1994- NASCAR Racing- First PC based racing sim to tackle NASCAR
competition with realistic tracks, including accurate scenery.  First PC
based racing sim to offer every NASCAR track licensable.  First PC based
racing game to offer texture mapped, SVGA video in a full race field.  

1995/96- IndyCar Racing II- First PC based racing game to be released in
three versions at once- Windows, DOS, MAC.  First PC based racing game
to feature rendition support.  

1996- NASCAR Racing 2- First PC based racing game to offer spotter
audio.  First NASCAR genre game to offer rendition, first PC based
racing game to offer Dale Earnhardt and a host of other Winston Cup
stars.

So, where would we sim racing fanatics be without Papyrus?  Playing Bill
Elliott's bug-filled NASCAR challenge?  Days of bugs and Thunder?  GP2?
I am grateful for Papyrus being the first to stand up and tackle the
NASCAR world with such ferocity.  Heck, even Busch driver Steve Park
attributed his 5th place finish at Dover to his 800+ laps driven on the
monster mile in NASCAR 2!  He mentioned this live on TNN motorsports
after the race.  I look forward to the continuing evolution of the
computer racing sim, thanks in large part to Papyrus.

God Bless,
Steve