rec.autos.simulators

by PW » Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:34:42

On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu

>> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu

>>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...

>> what is CMR?

>Colin McRae Rally.

Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm
sure I will have some fun with it.

Thanks,

-pw

by **Vectre** » Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:36:19

Seriously, get Richard Burns Rally while you're at it. They are
different games, CMR is fun, which at first I couldn't say RBR was
'fun' exactly, but the smile on my face was mainly to do with how real
it felt and how unforgiving it was :) Basically if you try and play it
without doing the rally school section they warn you because it really
doesn't dumb it down one bit. CMR the roads are wide and it's very
easy, in RBR the roads are crazy thin and the damage model is brutal
(thankfully you can turn it off). Put it this way, it took me a long
time before I could make it through a single stage without rolling and
smashing even down a straight road! :) While this makes it sound
annoying it's not, because when you're going fast it actually feels as
fast as it should. Whereas CMR you're going flat out all the time with
no danger so there's no seat of the pants feeling, good to play while
eating a sandwich though :)
Btw CMR 1 still has the best in***pit view ever.

> On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu

> >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu

> >>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...

> >> what is CMR?

> >Colin McRae Rally.

> Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm
> sure I will have some fun with it.

> Thanks,

> -pw

by **Vectre** » Fri, 08 Dec 2006 23:43:38

As for FF, I think the only game I've played who's FF actually felt
real and truly enhances the game is Richard Burns Rally. I'm still
amazed by it, I feel completely connected to the road surface.
rFactor's is terrible, LFS is ok and worth having but still not great.
In RBR the only thing that ruins it a bit is my MOMO simply can't turn
fast enough without the FF motors 'biting'. I had a go on a G25 and
that thing can spin flat out so I can't wait to try RBR with a G25.

> I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of
> the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago
> was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave
> reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I
> expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right.
> Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning
> the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at
> full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the
> wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when
> making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in
> turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the
> given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie,
> load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car,
> the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating
> the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the
> sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I
> wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

by **Plowbo** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:16:01

Dave F enlightened us with:
<<<politely snipped>>>

BULLLLLLLLshit.
that makes about as much sense as saying you are fast in Mario Cart. that
has little to do with the sim coding/behavior as well, you've learned (or
unlearned) how to cope with shortcomings that the rest of us dummies cant
(apparently), and you DONT think it is the sim?

For arguements sake, my son can kick all our asses on playstation games, yet
cant turn a lap above half throttle in realistic sims on the PC. He's 12,
and has about 10 hours of country road REAL automobile driving experience
(not alone but with me in there). He can drive the shit out of GT3, and
Need for speeds and ATV vs MX LOL, but I dont plan to sleep while he is
driving.

*** reflexes don't mean driving reflexes neither IMHO.

by **jason moye** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 06:50:49

> Go*** (or gogamer, i forget) .com. I got it there for like $20, and it
> came on a single DVD in a snap-case, no copy protection I'm aware of, and
> doesn't require the disc to be inserted to play.

The game shipped with copy protection which was removed in a patch
after the initial buying period. I wish more companies would follow
SCI's example, especially considering that copy protection companies
(even Starforce of all people) recommend removing the protection once
the initial heavy sales period has concluded.

by **Larr** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:02:19

Mine actually came with it removed. No key or anything.

-Larry

>> Go*** (or gogamer, i forget) .com. I got it there for like $20, and
>> it
>> came on a single DVD in a snap-case, no copy protection I'm aware of, and
>> doesn't require the disc to be inserted to play.

> The game shipped with copy protection which was removed in a patch
> after the initial buying period. I wish more companies would follow
> SCI's example, especially considering that copy protection companies
> (even Starforce of all people) recommend removing the protection once
> the initial heavy sales period has concluded.

by PW » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:31:52

That is the one I ordered. Don't know how we got on the subject of
CMR. I guess I screwed up.

-pw

> They are
>different games, CMR is fun, which at first I couldn't say RBR was
>'fun' exactly, but the smile on my face was mainly to do with how real
>it felt and how unforgiving it was :) Basically if you try and play it
>without doing the rally school section they warn you because it really
>doesn't dumb it down one bit. CMR the roads are wide and it's very
>easy, in RBR the roads are crazy thin and the damage model is brutal
>(thankfully you can turn it off). Put it this way, it took me a long
>time before I could make it through a single stage without rolling and
>smashing even down a straight road! :) While this makes it sound
>annoying it's not, because when you're going fast it actually feels as
>fast as it should. Whereas CMR you're going flat out all the time with
>no danger so there's no seat of the pants feeling, good to play while
>eating a sandwich though :)
>Btw CMR 1 still has the best in***pit view ever.

>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2006 04:08:18 -0500, Chang Liu

>> >> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu

>> >>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...

>> >> what is CMR?

>> >Colin McRae Rally.

>> Oh Well, I ordered any way from GoGamer and it's on it's way. I'm
>> sure I will have some fun with it.

>> Thanks,

>> -pw

by **raam..** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:25:37

No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced
for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun.
I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and
care to offer an opinion on it.

by **Dave** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:16:10

>> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual,
>> and
>> I'll quit sim racing forever.

>> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
>> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??"

> Because you're using a driving style that works for the sim. You've
> mentioned being smooth without sawing away at the wheel like people do
> in GPL, yet if you look at half the guys on the grid in F1 they're
> anything but smooth. If you tried to use a technique like Schumacher
> does in any ISI open wheeled sim that I've tried, i.e. early throttle
> application and using the wheel to keep the car on the edge of the
> traction circle, I doubt you could make it through 2 corners without
> losing the rear of the car. I can drive F1C and rFactor just fine if I
> try to drive overly smoothly, but that's not my style. A good sim,
> regardless of the subjective "realism" factor, should be able to cater
> to a diversity of styles just as real cars do. Not everyone drives an
> F1 car like Prost, but his style is pretty much the only one that works
> in ISI open wheelers.

When I say "smooth", I'm referring to how the car appears to a spectator. No
one saws at the wheel in real F1 like we would in GPL. Depending on the
circumstances (track/corner/chicane/cold tires/hot tires/worn tires) there
are times when I have to really work the wheel like F1 drivers sometimes
have to do. As for Schumacher's techinique that you described, that's
exactly how I drive. I brake deep into a corner and then early throttle.
Often overlappling the two. If I make a mistake and the rear end kicks out,
I can pull it back. Even when the car goes into a full slide, it can
sometimes be saved. No difference from the real thing. Other types of cars
require a different approach to the F1 cars and I have no problem with them
either.

I ran the Megane mod at R.A.C.E.R. recently and mistakenly chose the wrong
ff option in the upgrades section. The car felt disconnected from the road,
and I was 2 seconds off the pace at WG Long. Later I went back and changed
the setting and the car felt great and I found those two seconds and a
little bit more immediately. It was MY fault that the car didn't feel right
and I was struggling, not the sim.

Whatever is necessary, the sim allows it. Thousands of others agree
apparently. The only place I've read these complaints are here at r.a.s. by
the same handful of guys who've always said the same thing about ISI sims. I
race at R.A.C.E.R. and we just completed an F1 season. 20 drivers on the
grid, 10 team owners and at least 15 test drivers. About 45 alltogether, and
never once did anyone ever say they were struggling with the car and try to
blame it on the sim. My teammate and I both used the same setups, but he
uses a non-force feedback wheel and I use a DFP, and yet our results are
close to identical.

--
David G Fisher

by **Dave** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:22:19

Funny post, doesn't relate to me at all, but it's amusing. BTW, you seem to
think you are somehow speaking for all serious sim drivers, but you are not.
An awful lot of top sim drivers are running this sim and praising it. Maybe
they should switch over to Mario Cart.
--
David G Fisher

by **evente..** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 23:15:38

> No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced
> for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun.
> I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and
> care to offer an opinion on it.

I loved it - I really hope someone manages to recreate the stages in
RBR.
Looong stages - 20km, some absolute white-knuckle driving (IIRC the
Scotland stages could get particularly hairy when the road narrowed).
I'll have to see if it still runs on my *** rig when my 8800GTS
comes in :).

Kendt

by **Larr** » Sat, 09 Dec 2006 23:42:28

Yeah, wasn't bad. I have it somewhere.

-Larry

by **jason moye** » Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:15:33

> No ever mentioned mobil 1 rally- an EA release from 2000; very advanced
> for it's time; exciting and immersive gameplay and really a lot of fun.
> I know it didn't sell well, but I'm sure someone here has tried it and
> care to offer an opinion on it.

Great sim. I wish someone would make one that combined the simulation
qualities of RBR with the gameplay from Mobil 1/RC 2000. The physics
weren't the greatest, but the stages were heavenly.

I wonder how difficult it would be to convert Mobil 1 stages over to
Driver's Republic (the new sim from the RBR physics programmer).
Hmmmmmmmmmm...

by **M Knor** » Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:10:19

Hello Ray,

I own both the Rfactor and Live for Speed simulators. I don't even bother
with any of the 'games' out there.

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:42:19

> As for Schumacher's techinique that you described, that's
> exactly how I drive.

Come to think of it, have you ever seen Fisher and Schumacher in the
same picture?

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