rec.autos.simulators

> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, and
> I'll quit sim racing forever.

> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??"

> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and
> say........it's YOU.

> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad
> setups (or both).

> If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or
> there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a
> matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that
> can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of
> the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1 cars
> are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have to be
> driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive amounts
> of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic looking 118.3
> at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3 at Nuerburgring,
> or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My replays look as
> if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back and forth at the
> wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to the road because
> it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the only way you can
> be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely nowhere. Never in a
> million years could anyone look at one of my replays and say it looks like
> I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to those times in these
> F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little feedback. Can't be done.
> The amount of feedback I get from the car is massive. Any tiny change in
> the setup and I can instantly feel it.

> Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible.

> I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the
> controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor.
> What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If
> what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my
> hard drive.

> --
> David G Fisher

>> 100% agreement on the ISI comments.  I think you nailed it perfectly.

>> -Larry

>>> 1. GPL
>>> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced.
>>> It still has the finest***pits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to
>>> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work
>>> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and
>>> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics.
>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays.

>>> 2. RBR
>>> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You
>>> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed,
>>> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you
>>> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the
>>> stages.
>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after
>>> a while

>>> 3.
>>> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor)
>>> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics
>>> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great
>>> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like
>>> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to
>>> the road?

>>> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much
>>> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents,
>>> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic.

>>> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've
>>> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller
>>> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc
>>> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch.

>>> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their
>>> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which
>>> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them.
>>> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the
>>> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits.

>>> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem
>>> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod
>>> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too
>>> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly
>>> matched.

>>> So, what is the love part then... :-)  It's the immersion when you're
>>> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the
>>> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami,
>>> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily
>>> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the
>>> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping.
>>> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest.

>>> 4.
>>> LFS
>>> This is a good online racer, with decent
>>> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity
>>> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with
>>> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn.
>>> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks.
>>> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay.

>>> 5.
>>> NetKar Pro
>>> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is
>>> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed
>>> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling.
>>> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what
>>> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay
>>> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit
>>> your schedule.

>>> It might improve someday, who knows...
>>> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay.

>>> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth...

>>> Cheers!

>>> Remco

> You still have to set up the wheel correctly, and you still need the car set
> up correctly, or any sim will feel awful. You're sure you did this before
> you asked for a refund sometime in the first 48 hours after download?

> Sounds impossible.

> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual, and
> I'll quit sim racing forever.

> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??"

>> Please answer the following question with something logical and factual,
>> and I'll quit sim racing forever.

>> "Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
>> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say??"

> I have grown to really like the ISI engined sims from rFactor on, though I
> am not convinced by your argument. It was quite possible to create
> realistic looking replays in GPL, if you drove it in a conventioanl
> manner. Then again it was possible to drive it and be faster in a more
> sideways style than maybe realistic.

> Nah, it's not me.  I read enough of the same complaint all over to know
> it's not just me.

> -Larry

>> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and
>> say........it's YOU.

>> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad
>> setups (or both).

>> If the cars feel like they are on ice, or not connected to the road, or
>> there isn't enough feedback, it isn't the sim, it's you. This isn't a
>> matter of personal feel or agreeing to disagree, but it's somehting that
>> can be easily be proven. I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of
>> the fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod. These F1
>> cars are the perfect shoice to disprove what you claim because they have
>> to be driven exactly like the real drivers do in F1 or you lose massive
>> amounts of time. It is simply impossible to run a clean, realistic
>> looking 118.3 at Silverstone, 128.5 at Shakir, 111.4 at Montreal, 127.3
>> at Nuerburgring, or a 129.2 at Suzuka without being extremely precise. My
>> replays look as if the car is on rails, and there is no wild sawwing back
>> and forth at the wheel. Smooth and precise, and the car looks GLUED to
>> the road because it's taken to the very limit, but never over. That's the
>> only way you can be fast. GPL style driving will get you absolutely
>> nowhere. Never in a million years could anyone look at one of my replays
>> and say it looks like I'm driving on ice. No one could ever come close to
>> those times in these F1 cars if the car felt loose, and with little
>> feedback. Can't be done. The amount of feedback I get from the car is
>> massive. Any tiny change in the setup and I can instantly feel it.

>> Now how can I or anyone do those times, and they look like they do in
>> replays, if the sim feels and drives like you say?? It's impossible.

>> I don't know what wheels you use and what settings you've chosen in the
>> controller screen, but they've got to be wrong. The setups must be poor.
>> What's funny is that no one hates a loose feeling car more than me. If
>> what you guys say is true, I'd be the first one to delete rFactor from my
>> hard drive.

>> --
>> David G Fisher

>>> 100% agreement on the ISI comments.  I think you nailed it perfectly.

>>> -Larry

>>>> 1. GPL
>>>> The physics are a bit outdated, but the game is so well balanced.
>>>> It still has the finest***pits/carmodels to date, IMO, thanks to
>>>> guys like the GPLEA. If you want to win from the AI, you've to work
>>>> for it, it took me months to win a race. Still playable online, and
>>>> mods are available for other F1 years, with 'corrected' physics.
>>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/gameplay/replays.

>>>> 2. RBR
>>>> It really gives you a feeling like you're driving a rally car. You
>>>> notice how fast you're driving, and I'm often scared of the speed,
>>>> feeling the need to lift. Not easy. The only downside is the fact you
>>>> don't race others, which got me bored after a while, once I knew the
>>>> stages.
>>>> Scores well on graphics/physics/sound/replays, less on gameplay after
>>>> a while

>>>> 3.
>>>> ISI based sims (GTL/GTR2/rFactor)
>>>> I always have an hate/love relation with ISI based sims. The graphics
>>>> are great and still there is so much lacking. You can have great
>>>> dynamic lightning, shadows, cool refections on the car, and stuff like
>>>> that, but what's the point if the car doesn't seem to be connected to
>>>> the road?

>>>> The fact that the replay system isn't that nice doesn't help much
>>>> eighter. Online you don't see the suspension move of your opponents,
>>>> and the tyre smoke doesn't feel realistic.

>>>> The physics feel nice with a better tyremodel than GPL, but I've
>>>> always the feeling the car floats. It doesn't help that the controller
>>>> lags a bit. I also don't like the way the brakes behave when the disc
>>>> is hot, it's too much an on/off switch.

>>>> The AI is bad (rFactor), or not realistic(GTR2/GTL). They match their
>>>> speed on your pace, I always hate that. They also do things which
>>>> would get your licence pulled in real life. I don't like racing them.
>>>> I also don't like it you've to earn the cars, not all of us do've the
>>>> time to race severall hours a day to get the credits.

>>>> Online is a mixed bag. I only played rfactor online, and the problem
>>>> is that there are too many mods to get a lot of drivers using the mod
>>>> you like. Since there're so many mods, the quality of drivers is too
>>>> wide spread, with a small chance of racing a group of drivers evenly
>>>> matched.

>>>> So, what is the love part then... :-)  It's the immersion when you're
>>>> driving a car like the Saleen in GTR2 through Eau Rouge, it's the
>>>> sound, it's the modelling of weather, it's the F1 1979 Mod on Kyalami,
>>>> and it's the idea that all the problems I have could be fixed easily
>>>> with the next patch...but the latter thing is true for years with the
>>>> ISI sims, allthough I keep hoping.
>>>> Great on sound, mixed feelings with the rest.

>>>> 4.
>>>> LFS
>>>> This is a good online racer, with decent
>>>> graphics/sounds/physics/replays and stuff. However, the mentallity
>>>> of other drivers is what kills it for me. I always compare it with
>>>> Quake on wheels, always expecting an headshot when exiting a turn.
>>>> Offline the AI is too dull, the same goes for the tracks.
>>>> Nice on Graphics/Sound/Physics/Replays, mixed feeling about gameplay.

>>>> 5.
>>>> NetKar Pro
>>>> Driving a car in Netkar Pro, if you can get the car started :-/, is
>>>> the most realistic experience in a sim I have. The latest patch dumbed
>>>> it down somewhat (Grrr BRD), but it's still a great feeling.
>>>> Graphics/Sound/Physics, all great. But then, the gameplay...what
>>>> gameplay? There is no AI, no filled servers online. The only gameplay
>>>> there is, is an online league, but that doesn't help if it doesn't fit
>>>> your schedule.

>>>> It might improve someday, who knows...
>>>> Great on graphics/sound/physics, mediocre on replays, no gameplay.

>>>> Well, this is my top 5, for what's worth...

>>>> Cheers!

>>>> Remco

>>Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and
>>say........it's
>>YOU.

> Of course.

>>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the
>>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod.

> Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said,
> 'That Don't Impress Me Much'.

> Jason, Remco, and Larry............I've got to be blunt and say........it's
> YOU.

> Either your wheels aren't set up correctly for the sim, or you have bad
> setups (or both).

>>>I'm not blowing my own horn, but I have some of the
>>>fastest times you'll find anywhere with the CTDP F1 mod.

>> Well Dave, like the great philosopher S. Twain once said,
>> 'That Don't Impress Me Much'.

>Of course.

> This really isn't about which sim "feels right" to someone. It's about
> disproving claims by some that the game engine is somehow flawed. If these
> claims were true, then my lap times in the F1 cars, and the way the were
> achieved, wouldn't be possible. They haven't set up their wheels correctly,
> are probably using ***setups, and I'd guess they aren't really trying very
> hard to train themselves (as you mentioned) because they really don't want
> to stray from their favorite developers.....if you know what I mean.

> Anyway, this thread wasn't about which sim is the best, it's which sim
> you like the most.

> Cheers!

> Remco

> I also wonder how many "sim" racers know what they are doing in terms of
> the feel of the cars. The first force-feedback wheel I tried years ago
> was just awful. Last year I bought a logitech momo force due to the rave
> reviews, thinking that the technology had finally come of age. I
> expected to be able to just plug it in, and it would be about right.
> Instead, it was *completely* unrealistic. Firstly, the load when turning
> the wheel was the same whether you where turning from dead center, or at
> full lock. With a real car, the steering will load up as you turn the
> wheel more and more, and there will be little if any resistance when
> making small turns. Also, the resistance of the momo force was in
> turning the wheel, and once it was turned, you could hold it at the
> given amount of lock and there would be practically no load at all, ie,
> load was related to turning the wheel. On the other hand, in a real car,
> the load is generated by the angle of the wheel as this is generating
> the cornering forces. Despite this, you would hear lots of people on the
> sim newsgroup saying how great the force-feedback wheels are - so I
> wonder just how much experience these drivers have of real cars.

>I'll take hits for this from the Papy Haters, but I don't care.  To me, no
>one has accomplished the relaying of grip and what the car is doing better
>than Papy.  I'm not talking about the amount of grip, I'm talking about the
>relaying of grip to the driver of the Sim.  I still believe the FF in NR2003
>sucks though :(  Somehow that goodness never made it over from GPL :(

>For example, in NR2003 at a track like Texas, C***te, Atlanta, etc...
>where you really lean on and steer the car on the RR tire, I can instantly
>tell when I've crossed the line and the rear is starting to step out.  I can
>then feather the throttle just right to stop the slide but yet not lose any
>more time than necessary.

> On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 03:51:42 -0500, Chang Liu

>> How can you consider CMR a sim? Its arcade at best...

> what is CMR?