rec.autos.simulators

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:51:52

I explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain it clearly.

Never thought for a second you would apologize.

David G Fisher

> Oh, my manners certainly allow it. But unfortunately for you, only when
> appropriate, which in this case, is not.

> You responded...

> >Simply because drivers originate from a
> > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
> > their abilities?

> Definitely.

> But that doesn't imply that because they are from the south, they lack
> talent? Are abilities and talent not extremely similar?

> > You obviously didn't read this whole thread.

> > We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come
> from
> > a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a
group
> > they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
> > much, much larger talent pool.

> > I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he
> is
> > certain to be lacking talent.

> > Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize.

> > David G Fisher

> > > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited
> your
> > > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very
little
> to
> > > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the
> > ability
> > > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those
> > around
> > > them, but not because of where they are born.

> > > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine
around
> > the
> > > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid
> to
> > > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give
you
> > the
> > > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request
> the
> > > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US.

> > > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as
> long
> > > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am
> proud
> > > of.

> > > Glen Pittman
> > > Officially now a Redneck.

> > > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a
> > > redneck...he's
> > > > a
> > > > > Californian by way of Indiana.

> > > > Talks like one. :-)

> > > > >Simply because drivers originate from a
> > > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow
> > limit
> > > > > their abilities?

> > > > Definitely.

> > > > David G Fisher

by **ymenar** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:42:10

> I explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain it

clearly.

But you sure did wrote that "Definitely" on purpose, in hope of catching
somebody to get more attention to you. Don't even say you did not, it's
blatant rhetoric manipulation.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Mario Petrinovi** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:54:57

I don't see your point. Of course everybody who raced with
MS are way bellow him, and everybody who raced with Senna are
more equal. I wanted to finish my part of this thread, but you forced
me to put a little more statistic.

1984 - Johansson managed to be 4th in his first race for Toleman,
wihtout previous practice
Senna 1 fastest lap, in Monaco
1985 - de Angelis almost equal points
Senna 3 fastest laps
1987 - Piquet and Mansell better with same engine
Piquet 4 fastest laps, Mansell and Senna 3
1988/9 - Prost equal on points
1988 - Prost 7 fl, Senna 3
1989 - Prost 5 fl, Senna 3
1990 - Berger 3 fl, Senna 2
1991 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 2
Schumacher in a first race for Benetton (2nd in career )
better than Piquet
1992 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 1 in McLaren-Honda; points equal
Schumacher 2 fl in Benetton-Ford
1993 - Senna better than Schumacher with same engine, on points, lol,
although every race that MS finished, he was on podium
Schumacher 5 fl, Senna 1
1994 - worst than Schumacher (see Brasilian GP )
Schumacher 8 fl (2 in first 2 races )
Senna 0 fl, although Damon Hill was 2nd at the end, with Williams

As we see Senna and Schumacher did race against each other, and
this is the statistic.You can ask yourself how somebody who didn't race
fast laps can be so high. Well, he didn't have to be fast, as long as he had
strong elbows. That is what I'm talking all the time. His driving stile
wasn't
clean precise champion, but arrogant elbowing.

> > Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> > competition???

> The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques
> Villeneuve.

by **Mario Petrinovi** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:09:34

Sorry for repeted posts, my Outlook express obviosly
gone mad.

by **Mario Petrinovi** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:03:47

> > Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> > competition???

> The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques
> Villeneuve.

I don't see your point. Of course everybody who raced with
MS are way bellow him, and everybody who raced with Senna are
more equal. I wanted to finish my part of this thread, but you forced
me to put a little more statistic.

1984 - Johansson managed to be 4th in his first race for Toleman,
wihtout previous practice
Senna 1 fastest lap, in Monaco
1985 - de Angelis almost equal points
Senna 3 fastest laps
1987 - Piquet and Mansell better with same engine
Piquet 4 fastest laps, Mansell and Senna 3
1988/9 - Prost equal on points
1988 - Prost 7 fl, Senna 3
1989 - Prost 5 fl, Senna 3
1990 - Berger 3 fl, Senna 2
1991 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 2
Schumacher in a first race for Benetton (2nd in career )
better than Piquet
1992 - Berger 2 fl, Senna 1 in McLaren-Honda; points equal
Schumacher 2 fl in Benetton-Ford
1993 - Senna better than Schumacher with same engine, on points, lol,
although every race that MS finished, he was on podium
Schumacher 5 fl, Senna 1
1994 - worst than Schumacher (see Brasilian GP )
Schumacher 8 fl (2 in first 2 races )
Senna 0 fl, although Damon Hill was 2nd at the end, with Williams

As we see Senna and Schumacher did race against each other, and
this is the statistic.You can ask yourself how somebody who didn't race
fast laps can be so high. Well, he didn't have to be fast, as long as he had
strong elbows. That is what I'm talking all the time. His driving stile
wasn't clean precise champion, but arrogant elbowing. It my look good for
masses, but not for me.

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:21:22

Definitely not.

BTW, if I was a needy person, I could probably think of a trillion better
ways to attract attention than to have a faceless debate with someone on an
auto simulator newsgroup.

David G Fisher

> > I explained it clearly. Other posts by me in this thread explain it
> clearly.

> But you sure did wrote that "Definitely" on purpose, in hope of catching
> somebody to get more attention to you. Don't even say you did not, it's
> blatant rhetoric manipulation.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.ymenard.8m.com/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:55:07

On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 01:15:32 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"

>Ok mate. Lol. It was interesting. It's good to talk racing.
>They are both good (Senna and MS ), otherwise will not
>come even close to F1. Man, I'll never grow up.

>"Life is very short and there's no time
> For fussing and fighting my friend"

So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen?

Andre

by **Mario Petrinovi** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:13:42

Oops. You caught me here. Althought he was with
MS (whom I did watch very closely ), I still didn't make
up my mind. It's very hard with F1 to make up your mind
about frontrunners, with that unequility of equipment. It's
even harder about the rest, which you never even see,
anyeway. Can you help us a little bit.

by **Richard Walke** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 20:54:18

Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend. He's
probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher (Benetton)
experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not
good enough.

Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid. The
only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, Giancarlo Fisichella
and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': Kimi Raikonnen,
Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out.

--
Richard.

"Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible."

by **Mario Petrinovi** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:25:29

Lol. I'm wondering. If there is no Micheal Schumacher, they
all will look much better (this is not only for JV, but for anybody ).
On the other hand, they all look a little distant, because of point
system, and unequal cars.
I now, I sound like parrot, but this is not good thing.

> Well I every other French Canadian would agree, but he's proven very
> little to me. 97 championship - big deal. Win it with the best team
> in the best car. Does that prove he's the best driver? And what's he
> done since? And hey if the track is even a bit wet, how many laps
> before JV runs off?

> Good driver, yes, but overrated, especially in Quebec.

> On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:16:04 -0500, "ymenard"

> >> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
> >> competition???

> >The only driver capable of beating him with an equal car... Jacques
> >Villeneuve.

by **Andre Warrin** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:33:53

On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:13:42 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"

> Oops. You caught me here. Althought he was with
>MS (whom I did watch very closely ), I still didn't make
>up my mind. It's very hard with F1 to make up your mind
>about frontrunners, with that unequility of equipment. It's
>even harder about the rest, which you never even see,
>anyeway. Can you help us a little bit.

Well, ofcourse I followed Jos more than the other drivers since he's
Dutch, just as I am. Its not that often that we had Dutchies in F1 so
logically I support Jos in every way I can :)

But I fully agree with Richard Walkers reply: 'he's had enough
changes, and he's not good enough.' Every year he had every possible
problem that an F1 driver could get, ALLWAYS problems with the car,
and each time I though 'oh well, next year will be better'.

At the end of last season again numerous stories by Jos and Arrows how
next year WILL be better, but I seriously start to doubt that now.
Jos' qualifying last year was unbelievable horrible. Yes, he made that
up with his brilliant starts every race, but being outqualified by
Bernoldi was quite humiliating.

I'm glad he's still in F1 (because he's Dutch :) but otherwise I would
have wondered what the hell he is still doing in F1.
F1 should be for elite drivers only, not for 'rather good' drivers.

Andre

by **Uncle Feste** » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 22:31:59

> A thread is a conversation. If someone is going to participate in that
> thread, they should read as much of it as possible before jumping in. It's
> why we should "group messages by conversation" (an option in OE).

> Prevents a lot of misunderstandings and people taking comments out of
> context. Also prevents us from having to continually restate our entire
> viewpoint within a thread.

> I thought we all knew this?

You're sidestepping. Eldred has you perfectly in context. No misquotes
or misunderstandings to it.

--

Fester

> > The question:
> > >> > >Simply because drivers originate from a
> > >> > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow
> > >limit
> > >> > > their abilities?

> > Your answer:
> > >> > Definitely.

> > >> > David G Fisher

> > I can see where and why he got upset with your answer. I know what you
> may
> > have MEANT, but you stated it wrong in this case. Your answer says that
> being
> > from the Southern US limits their abilities. You didn't say ANYTHING
> about the
> > number of drivers in the 'talent pool' as you like to call it...

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank - under construction...

> > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
> you
> > with experience...
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:00:38

Well there is another factor we have overlooked. Driver talent from a
world wide gene pool certainly would be higher, but, the physical aspects
that make a great driver...better vision, better hand eye co-ordination,
better inate understanding of what a car is doing, these will all come to
naught if there is no track knowledge.
I know what you are thinking, an oval is an oval, but setupwise that
couldn't be further from the truth. Even a hot setup in a spring race may
be JUNK at the summer event. Here is where the Southern boys have an
advantage because this is there backyard. This is something they grew up
surrounded by. Chad Little was from my neck of the woods, Big fish in a
small pond. He dominated the Winston West series up in the Pacific NW.
He goes to the Busch series and does well. He joins WC with a top flight
team and is embarrased..twice. Driver talent does impact finishing order
but so too does the driver/crew chief communication. Over the course of a
season, a road-racer would be hard pressed to find the tiny tiny changes
that make a WC a 'rocket-ship' and those that turn it into junk.
Certainly there would be places that natural talent would shine through,
especially I think, the flatter tracks, but over all for a season's worth of
racing...It would take several years for a RR to get consitant top 5
finishes.
dave henrie

> You obviously didn't read this whole thread.

> We were speaking about driverS (plural-a group) that all happen to come
from
> a particular region of one country. It's ridiculous to say that as a group
> they can be considered the equals of other drivers (F1) who come from a
> much, much larger talent pool.

> I did not say that simply because a person is born in the South, that he
is
> certain to be lacking talent.

> Let's see if your southern manners allow you to apologize.

> David G Fisher

> > And obviously not being from the southern part of the US has limited
your
> > intelligence...Moron. Where a person is born or raised has very little
to
> > do with natural talent. Some have the ability to drive, others the
> ability
> > play sports, others the ability to simply be a better jerk than those
> around
> > them, but not because of where they are born.

> > And as far as life in general goes, I would much rather live mine around
> the
> > type people who the south is remebered for. People who are not afraid
to
> > work for what they believe in and desire, and people who would give you
> the
> > shirt off their back to help you if you needed it, whether you request
the
> > help or not. Those, sir, are the real people of the US.

> > So if you want to call me a redneck, then go right ahead. Because as
long
> > as I am a redneck, no one will confuse me with your type. That I am
proud
> > of.

> > Glen Pittman
> > Officially now a Redneck.

> > > > Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a
> > redneck...he's
> > > a
> > > > Californian by way of Indiana.

> > > Talks like one. :-)

> > > >Simply because drivers originate from a
> > > > paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow
> limit
> > > > their abilities?

> > > Definitely.

> > > David G Fisher

by **John Pancoas** » Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:02:11

I follow the races, but not the in-depth stuff about F1; does a team's
sponsor have a say into what driver is hired, as in other series?

-John

> > So, what do you guys think of Jos Verstappen?

> Odd flashes of brilliance, but he can't do that every race weekend. He's
> probably also been mentally screwed-over by his Team Schumacher (Benetton)
> experienc in 1994. In my opinion, he's had enough changes, and he's not
> good enough.

> Actually... I think the same about the majority of the current F1 grid.
The
> only gems are: Michael Schumacher, Juan Pablo Montoya, Giancarlo
Fisichella
> and possibly Ralf Schumacher. One or two could 'come good': Kimi
Raikonnen,
> Nick Heidfeld, Takuma Sato - but the rest all need throwing out.

> --
> Richard.

> "Rocky Raccoon checked into his room Only to find Gideon's bible."

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:05:26

F1 uses 6 & 7 gears for instant accelleration, not long haul reliability.
Nascar purposely limits it's technology to preserve it's connection with
it's roots. Certainly it would be a minor engineering exercise to implement
a 6 speed gearbox in a WC car, but that is NOT the point of Nascar. Nascar
is not finding the newest trickest technology. Nascar is about taking an
existing technology and finding the absolute maximum it can produce.
Nothing less will be competitive. Just because the cars are NOT loaded with
Carbon fibre, computer controlled gearchangers, pneumatic valves etc etc
doesn't imply the engineers are less cutting edge. A winston cup team
spends plenty of time with wind tunnels, computer data gathering and the
like. But when race day comes around, all that is put away and the people
make the difference.
So what if the WC cars are heavier than your own car. That is the focus
of the league, not racing 4 wheeled bugs with computers for brains and
drivers merely along to change direction. About 15 years or so..maybe
more, maybe less...one of the car magazines here in the States compared a
Race Winning Porche 962 from the Imsa series( a really beautiful car, the
962 remains one of Porche's crowning acheivements) and matched it up against
a Winston Cup car for a speed test on an oval. Guess what? The big heavy
square WC car easily bested the sleek aero Porche. Racing is racing. You
don't have to like a paticular type, few people really do enjoy all kinds,
but to ignorantly slam others based on the type of racing they follow, only
shows your lack of knowledge of a series, not your superiority by choosing
to watch another form of racing.
dave henrie

rec.autos.simulators

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"