rec.autos.simulators

They don't have phony passing like in NASCAR. You're right there.

The main reason you don't see a lot of passing in F1 is because the cars are
mind blowingly quick and fast, and the drivers are so great. If you put all
of them, and anyone here at r.a.s. in a cars that couldn't go over 40mph,
we'd all finish bumper to bumper too. Big deal. Just because it would be
close wouldn't make it interesting.

David G Fisher

        That is the sadest part. And this is why I wrote all this posts. The
numbers tell the truth. In fact they are so strong that nobody can
argue them. Jet the mind of todays F1 fan is so brainwashed that he
cannot see the truth anymore. Senna was "the best driver the world
has ever seen" in the rain, but otherwise he was just overambitious
good driver. Nothing more. If F1 is racing on lose surfaces, Senna
again wouldn't be the best driver, but probably some Scandinavian.
        Regarding quality of drivers. What makes F1 the best drivers in
the world? Again money. Money atracts best drivers in the world to
come to F1. Here comes, for me as racing fan, another very sad part.
I like to know who the best drivers are, and I sure respect them, but
most of all, I want to see that immense talent in action, like I saw it
during 70's. Whenever I'm looking F1 race I'm sad, because I see
the best drivers in the world, being paid big amount of money, just
to walk the expensive cars around the track, every  two weeks. I want
to see them battling for every inch. What a waste of talent seeing
excellent driver at the back of the pack all the time, and in the same
time, some test drivers winning the championships.
        Regarding Nascar drivers. I can tell you, I saw a lot of racing
in my life, and when I saw Nascar I was plesently surprised with
quality of Nascar drivers. IMO, and not only IMO, they are very,
very good. I mean, I'm fan of Michael Schumacher, but Jeff Gordon
is very good too. And, although I think MS is godlike driver, to
say that he can beat JG on his own terrain is just streching it a little
too far.

        You cannot be more futher from truth. man. Mikka Hakinnen, Nigel
Mansel, Damon Hill, and even Mario Andretti, if anybody remembers,
were nobody before and after they raced for the top team. In a last 6
years those drivers scored 3 champinships. Nigel Mansel was interesting
example. Fighting like lion (Il Leone ), his driving stile had many fans
(including me ). Always interesting to watch. But, he was just inferior
driver in a superior machine, fighting like a lion with superior drivers in
inferior cars.

Just curious as to what criteria you use to judge "immense talent"?
You apply the label to Jean Alesi who has won precisely 1 GP out of
what, 200 starts while having a reputation for more than a few moments
of brainfade throughout his career (running the Benneton out of fuel
because he allegedly couldn't hear the pits calling him in for
example, or punting off his teammate at A-1 a couple of years ago).
Yet, on the other hand we have JP Montoya who has won exactly the same
number of GPs as Mr. Alesi in a much shorter time frame, who you have
frequently slammed in this newsgroup as being some kind of no-talent
hack (not your exact words, but the same idea).

While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, your credibility in
this newsgroup is so low that frankly I don't know why you even bother
to spout some of the drivel that you do...  

        1989- In a first race for Tyrrell finishes 4th (was running 2nd )
        !990- In a opening race at Phoenix, in Tyrrell, nearly defeats
                  Senna, in McLaren-Honda
                 From book: "At one point during season three teams
                (Tyrrell, Williams and Ferrari ) believed that they had his
                services for1991; he eventually chose Ferrari. If instead
                he had moved to Williams, the recent history of Grand
                Prix racing might be very different."
        93-97 -He was teammate with Berger (10 GP wins ), in Ferrari
                    and Benetton, always (except bad 94 season ) better
                    than him.

David G Fisher

As much as everyone doesn't seem to admit, racing is as much about the
machine as it is the driver. There are series that try to limit the machine
factor for entertainment reasons. I'm a fan of machinery, as much as a fan
of great drivers. I started watching F1 because I wanted to see the Ferrari
F1's fly around the track, not because they had one of the greatest drivers
in F1 history driving for them. When I watched my first F1 race, I could not
care less who was driving for Ferrari. So for me to watch a race were all
the machines are the same (or practicly the same) is pointless. Which is why
I'm not a big fan of Nascar, CART (although I do watch it, as it is fun to
watch at times), and Indy racing. Also, it would be hard to watch Nascar
knowing my road car has more gears than a Nascar (these are race cars
right?).

AFAIR when Berger/Alesi changed cars with Schumacher (remember how at that
time in the first races they were driving more or less the same cars the
other had been driving before), they did not change race finishing
positions.

Schumacher immediately took the Ferrari - which had usually finished around
position 5-7 when driven by Berger/Alesi - onto the podium, while Berger /
Alesi in Schumachers world championship car finished around positions 5-7.

Maybe the numbers aren't entirely correct, but they illustrate what happened
at that time. Being a talented _driver_ isn't enough. To win races, you need
additional capabilities.

Achim

If he'd been racing 50 years ago he would have been one of the greatest,
imho of course.

Gerry

Ho hum.

Senna was *not* always in the best car.  Toleman?  Lotus?  The later McLaren
years?

Schumacher, on the other hand, has had a damn good car for: 1994, 1995, 2000
and 2001.  Funnily enough, the years that he won the championship...

--
Richard.

"This happened once before, when I came to your door, no reply."

         I totaly agree with you. Setuping the car, saving tires,
being a smart a$$, these are all driving skills, which all come
into play. As DGF said, Alesi couldn't setup the car. Plus,
in his best days Ferrari really didn't work.
        To Richard Walker. Since 1984, and this is full 18
years, the championship winner was either in Williams or
McLaren. Or his name is Micheal Schumacher. In 94 and 95
Williams was so good that even Damon Hill had a chance.
I'll never forget 1994 race on Sennas home soil. Senna had
pole, fastest car, experience. And then Schumacher started
to breath at his neck. He was braking him from turn to turn,
until he didn't brake "the best driver the world has ever seen",
just like that.
        All those drivers for the past 18 years were nothing before
they came to Williams/McLaren (and after ), and all those other
teams were nothing before MS sat in them. Just to remind you
on 1987 season. Pique, Mansell and Senna had the same engine.
And Senna wasn't in some Benetton, but in a top team, Lotus.
Sennas score? Last of the three. Can you imagine MS in that
position. No way.
        And further. While MS is driving in second class teams, for
big money, and still winning championship, Senna, I forgot what
year that was, when his top team faded, was offering other top
team to drive for free, just to be in a top team, knowing that
otherwise he cannot score nothing. Team owner, naturaly took
him, pleased that finaly he paids driver the amount of money
he is worth. "The best driver the world has ever seen".  If I
remember correctly Prost wasn't too pleased with that.

So?  They employed some very good drivers.

Of course, you have to have a decent mix of driver and car.  I'm sure
neither Senna or Schumacher could win a race/title in a Minardi!

I really don't agree.  The 1994 Williams was *not* a good car to begin with.
And in 1995, Williams and Benetton shared the works Renault engine (perhaps
an indication, by Renault, of how poor the '94 Williams was?).

Schumacher also feels the need to have his team mate:

  a) chosen by him
  b) contracted to finish behind him

which seems, well... odd.

Senna raced alongside other top drivers - both in the same team, and in
other top teams.  Schumacher has raced against, erm... no-one *that*
spectacular.

--
Richard.

"In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs."

Uhhh... one is run on an oval track and the other is run on a road
course?  Do I get an award?

I think you forgot to throw in about 15% bad mojo, gremlins, wild
hair/body orifice interaction and planetary alignment... to both
equations.

I've never watched rally racing until yesterday when I was waiting on
the Citrus Bowl to start.  Now I am thinking about a rally sim.  Any
recommendations?

Happy New Year,
Gerald

Hehe, just think of DFG as the village idiot of ras.

Gerry

PS I'll just leave you with this quote:

"I have a very good life, and I made it this way by avoiding
the way of thinking of "the average guy"." -- David G Fisher, talking
about his life living rough on the street.