--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Dave Henrie" wrote
--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>
"Dave Henrie" wrote
As for the aids, just about every current F1 driver has already proved he
could handle the cars without them. The drivers were actually sliding the
cars more this year becasue they were going faster and dancing even closer
to the edge.
A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in talent
to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are almost
completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of the
same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come from all
over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
David G Fisher
Sorry to keep picking on you but....
Drivers that rarely make mistakes...hmmm could you be refering to Mika
Hakkinen who gave away a race he was leading(by a large margin) simply by
downshifting and downshifting and downshifting till the rear wheels locked
up?(perhaps that's why F1 drivers have computers to shift for them now)
Or Shumey who was so far ahead at Indy that he fell asleep and spun? Or
David Coulthard who hit the pitwall while trying to enter the pits? Or Josh
Verstappen who drove into the back of Montoya after letting him by? Or
Shumey Jr who got a 10 second stop and go for driving over a line the
drivers were specifically warned about in pre-race instructions? I could go
on...including how the world's greatest driver, while driving unchallenged
and in the lead in the pentultimate race of the season, a performance that
would have clinched the World title, got sloppy and drove into a wall...
My point is NOT to rag F1 drivers...but to remind everyone that drivers
are Human..they make mistakes. Nascar drivers do...Cart drivers do...That
human element is part of what makes racing what it is. Otherwise we could
just hook up the cars to computer ports, run the data, and declare the
winner.
One note about the Rental Road course drivers. WC drivers spend most of
their time on Ovals...that is the basis of the series add up all the RC laps
they complete and you probably don't even have enough laps to equal one race
distance on an oval, let alone the practice and warmups and qualifying etc
..If you had F1 drivers who normally ran road courses and dropped an oval
event in the schedule, I think you would find a Kenny Brack or a Jeff Gordon
on a short list of replacement drivers for some of the F1 regulars. Maybe
not at first, but if an oval was a regular event, sooner or later, an F1
team would bring in a ringer.(think of Ford who has teams based in both
series, the cross promotion value would be tremendous).
Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a redneck...he's a
Californian by way of Indiana. Simply because drivers originate from a
paticulary part of the country(the Southern US) does that somehow limit
their abilities? Tony Stewart a redneck? Robbie Gordon? Kenny Schrader
races Nascar, Nascar trucks, dirt track cars, short track cars, his idea of
a vacation is to find another racetrack to drive at...Can any one of the
Super F1 drivers boast his range of experience? To be sure, thye are
experts, they are very very good, but by no means do they represent the the
entire spectrum of racing.
There is a video on the net about about Mika Hakkinen driving a touring
car. Is Mika better than Bernd Scheider? Logic would say yes...Mika is a
two time F1 champion...Bernd has never even won an F1 event, yet when the
two ran DTM touring cars, Bernd's experience in the type let him easily
outrun Mika. Put Shumy in a WC rolling tank and see if he can apply all his
skills in a 4 hour race.( I would bet he would do quite well, but certainly
not outclass the creme of the Nascar field...that's their playground he,
similarly would fly away from a WC driver trying to run an F1 car.)
I haven't even mentioned Rallye car drivers who possess an amazing ability
to change pace and direction...I would love to see Shu and others compete
there as well, it woud make for interesting viewing. Putting Colin Mcrae
and MS in equal Ford's would be a real experience.
Sorry I took so long to make my point...There are great drivers all over
the world, just because one specializes in a paticular form does not make
him the superior driver compared to others who specialize in different
series.
dave henrie
-John
"David G Fisher"
nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all. Do
they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or How old
is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi
Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer?
Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so
specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I used Kenny
Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm trying to
think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the time of
Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers?
dave henrie
> David G Fisher
> > "jlohman"
> > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing
> fan..Heck
> > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have
> > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring
> car,
> > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye...
> Thes
> > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
> > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me
> play
> > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two...
> > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite
boring
> > to
> > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are
the
> > best
> > > in the world.
> > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers
> > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need a
> > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the pitspeed
> > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a computer
> to
> > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes
> them
> > the best?
> > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world.
> > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble the
> > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation of
> > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or
> Phillip
> > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch?
> > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world.
> > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them
> > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to
> keep
> > the tires from spinning.
> > But two outta three ain't bad...
> > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal.
The
> > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for
Nascar.
> > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be
> > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans.
> > dave henrie
>> Masses also love heroes, so you create them a hero. Senna has
>> incredibly low records. He failed to transfer 24 poles into a win, my god,
>> altough he was always in a fastest car (Schumacher have 10 wins more
>> than poles, and he never was in fastest car ), he had only 19 fastest laps
>> in 161 races (Schumacher 44 in 160 races ). Is this "the fastest man the
>> world has ever seen".
>I didn't know that about Senna. Another reason why I think Schumacher is the
>best ever. :-)
>David G Fisher (NASCAR blows ;-) )
Andre
There is absolutely, positively, no way a group of drivers that come almost
entirely from one region in one country can have the same talents as drivers
that are chosen from a MUCH larger talent pool.
BTW, I'm pretty sure Alesi (who's immense talents aren't ever debated) is
38. There have been (maybe are now, don't know for sure) NASCAR drivers who
are in their 50's. And yes, many of them are pudgy because the physical
demands on NASCAR drivers aren't near what they are for F1 drivers.
David G Fisher
> "David G Fisher"
> > A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in
talent
> > to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
> > response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are
> almost
> > completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of
the
> > same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come from
> all
> > over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
> nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all. Do
> they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or How
old
> is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi
> Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer?
> Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so
> specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I used
Kenny
> Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm trying
to
> think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the time of
> Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers?
> dave henrie
> > David G Fisher
> > > "jlohman"
> > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing
> > fan..Heck
> > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have
> > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But touring
> > car,
> > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my eye...
> > Thes
> > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
> > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let me
> > play
> > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two...
> > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite
> boring
> > > to
> > > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers are
> the
> > > best
> > > > in the world.
> > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye drivers
> > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't need
a
> > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the
pitspeed
> > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a
computer
> > to
> > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what makes
> > them
> > > the best?
> > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world.
> > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble
the
> > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation
of
> > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or
> > Phillip
> > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch?
> > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world.
> > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them
> > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program to
> > keep
> > > the tires from spinning.
> > > But two outta three ain't bad...
> > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's appeal.
> The
> > > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for
> Nascar.
> > > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be
> > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans.
> > > dave henrie
> Finally last I checked, Jeff Gordon doesn't qualify as a redneck...he's
a
> Californian by way of Indiana.
Definitely.
David G Fisher
Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block could
be a good race.
agreed to a point. Since the larger pool of talent has no experience in
Nascar type racing, the advantage of world wide numbers is deminished.
Physical demands yes indeed...but would they all be so skinny if they had
the room WC drivers have? Part of the physical fitness is merely to remain
waifish enough to climb inside. But that aside, the F1 car does put
tremendous physical stresses on a driver...in 1.5 hour blocks. How long is
the C***te 600 race? Just as Marathoners are built different from
Sprinters, so too the F1 driver vs the Nascar driver.
dave henrie
> David G Fisher
> > "David G Fisher"
> > > A bunch of old, fat, farts in NASCAR are never going to be close in
> talent
> > > to the F1 drivers. I said this onece before (and got a predictable
> > > response)........how can a group of drivers from one series which are
> > almost
> > > completely from one region (the south), in one country, possibly be of
> the
> > > same level of talent as drivers from another series (F1) that come
from
> > all
> > > over the world? Is there something in the water "down there"?
> > nope they are just exposed to a certain type of racing that's all.
Do
> > they all excell? noway. But is Jeff Gordon a Fat Old Fart?(fof) or How
> old
> > is Jean Alesis now that he's over the hill. Could Jenson Button or Kimi
> > Raikonen with all their youthful talent bang fenders with Jimmy Spencer?
> > Most F1 drivers are good at what they do, but they have become so
> > specialized that they miss out on such a huge range of racing. I used
> Kenny
> > Schrader as an example in a rather loooong post elsewhere and I'm trying
> to
> > think of an F1 driver that would compare....The fellows around the time
of
> > Jim Clark certainly would but modern drivers?
> > dave henrie
> > > David G Fisher
> > > > "jlohman"
> > > > I'm a racing fan...not a Nascar fan, not an F1 fan, but a racing
> > > fan..Heck
> > > > I even watch an occasional IRL event.(oops mini-slam) But I do have
> > > > preferences...I'll generally watch open wheel races first, But
touring
> > > car,
> > > > Trans Am, Desert, Hydroplanes...even lawnmowers have caught my
eye...
> > > Thes
> > > > absolute best race I saw last year was the AMA SUperbike race at
> > > > Brainerd(and yes I remember what DGF said about that :> ). So let
me
> > > play
> > > > the Devil's advocate for a moment or two...
> > > > > Well, whats to slam? Other than the fact that the races are quite
> > boring
> > > > to
> > > > > watch most of the time. They can't slam the drivers, F1 drivers
are
> > the
> > > > best
> > > > > in the world.
> > > > Ever watch Rallye drivers? I don't hear of too many Rallye
drivers
> > > > comming up from kiddie go-karts.( ;> ) Winston Cup drivers don't
need
> a
> > > > computer controlling the engine during pit stops...they hit the
> pitspeed
> > > > limits WITHOUT a rev-limiter. Touring car drivers don't need a
> computer
> > > to
> > > > get them going from a standing start like F1 drivers. Just what
makes
> > > them
> > > > the best?
> > > > > The tracks are the most legandary tracks in the world.
> > > > Is that why most have been butchered so that they barely resemble
> the
> > > > Legendary tracks they 'USED' to be? Tell me the current incarnation
> of
> > > > Imola is 'legendary.' Is Hungary a better track than Mid Ohio? or
> > > Phillip
> > > > Island? Is Silverstone better than Brands Hatch?
> > > > > The cars are the most advanced cars in the world.
> > > > Yup they sure are...gotta have a computer program to get them
> > > > moving...most of the time that is. They gotta have another program
to
> > > keep
> > > > the tires from spinning.
> > > > But two outta three ain't bad...
> > > > Beleive me I watch more F1 than Nascar, but each has it's
appeal.
> > The
> > > > list of things WRONG with F1 is probably much longer than that for
> > Nascar.
> > > > But both, in fact all racing series, have shortcomings that could be
> > > > improved to provide a better racing product for us the fans.
> > > > dave henrie
> > You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and you didn't
> > really answer my question.
> Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block
could
> be a good race.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/%25oY97.58361%24EP6.137... My comments were just a joke (except the part about ymenard :-) ) and meant If I actually did half of the bad things I get accused of here, I could see
Not diminished. Just a fact. They don't come from a large talent pool
I wouldn't say NASCAR drivers bear much resemblance to serious marathoners. David G Fisher
0news1.rdc2.pa.home.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.autos.simulators%2BDa
id%2BG%2BFisher%2Btricycles%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
to needle you since you kind of ripped F1. I made clear that clear in a
subsequent reply. I used to have a motorcycle and loved it.
why some of you would think I was such a jerk.
compared to drivers from F1. If they all came from one city, state, or three
states, I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with me at all.
:-)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/+David+G+Fisher+...
es&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search
> > > You didn't tell me what I said about the motorcycle race, and you
didn't
> > > really answer my question.
> > Sorry ...something about 4 kids on trikes running around the block
> could
> > be a good race.
> You jogged my memory so I looked up the thread.
The comment about the drivers was based on road racers (F1 being the pinacle
of road racing), vs Nascar drivers. I had not intended to compare F1 drivers
to all types of drivers. I personally have the most respect for rally car
drivers. F1 uses rev limiters for saftey reasons, not because they want to
make it easy for their drivers (btw, I will not even get into all the saftey
issues with Nascar).
Ok, but once again, I was comparing the legandary tracks of F1 (yes there
are still a couple, Monza, Monte Carlo, and Spa) to the lack of legandary
tracks in Nascar (the one that comes to mind is Indy).
"
:-) We all have opinions.
I did not say they were perfect. But they make very few mistakes. I would
say the fewest mistakes in all of car racing.
Umm. I think Montoya would do very well on an oval in F1 (if the impossible
happened). Actually, I think Villenueve would do very well as well. As for
that matter, I really don't think any team would replace their drivers with
a Jeff Gordan or a Tony Stewert. My opinion is that Micheal Schumacher would
beat Jeff Gordan on any track in an equal F1 car, Oval or not.
Yes, I agree, Jeff Gordan is not a redneck. But you put him in a TV
commerical with junk cars in front of a house, and he would not look out of
place, my opinion.
Well, Rubens and Micheal Schumacher both raced go carts during the off
season. I don't know anything about Nascar trucks, there is no way in the
world I would watch that. That is the bigest joke in motor racing in my
opinion. I'll watch just about all types of racing ( I have even watched
drag racing, when I've very bored), but I draw the line at true, diehard,
redneck racing.
Well, Nascar has put rules in place to make the races closer, to make it so
that someone that would have no chance to win, can win a race. It's all
false, without those rules Nascar would be dominated by the fastest drivers,
just like F1 is dominated by the fastest few. I don't see how anyone can
call it "racing", or better than F1. In F1 the guy in front, is generally in
front, because he's faster than the guy behind him, not because he got a
good draft off of Billy Bob's bumper. I would hate to watch a F1 race where
a Arrows was in 10th place, and on the last lap passes everyone to win the
race.
About Senna, I did not watch F1 then, but I think you are not going to find
many that share your opinion.
"> Ahhh but Senna raced against Alain Prost...Schumy had...what for
True, and his career was cut short.