rec.autos.simulators

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

Mario Petrinovi

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Mario Petrinovi » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:40:37

        Thanks for your answer, although you somehow manage to miss
to read my post onto wich you are replying, lol.
        If you have read it you'll know that they didn't have to employ
them. They were getting them for free.
        Any car in wich Damon Hill manage to be second or even win a
championship is excellent car.
        Schumacher did race agains't top drivers. I wrote what he did to
Senna in that excellent car. Also I wrote how Senna finished when he was
in the same position.
        Co-drivers of Senna:
84 Johnny Cecotto (who? )- in only race they together finished Senna was
                                            7th,Cecotto 9th
     Stefan Johansson - In a first race for Toleman, without previous
                                  practice, 4th
85 Elio de Angelis - at the end of the season Senna 38 points, de Angelis
                               33 points
86 Johnny Dumfries (who? )
87 Satoru Nakajima (who? )
        All that Senna showed during this four years is that he is equal
with Johansson and de Angelis, and that he is a very dirty driver, and if
you see him in your mirrors, you better run for your life. Good drivers use
their skills to gain a position, not their shoulders.


Eldre

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Eldre » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:07:33

Guys, can we just let this whole argument die peacefully?  Most people have a
"favorite" racing series.  No amout of discussion, argument, statistics or
name-calling is going to make ANYONE change his mind about his favorite.  It
only causes bad feelings, as we've seen.  As for the "best" driver(s), it's a
moot point.  Even the IROC series is a joke, given its NASCAR slant, and almost
exclusively american series drivers.  This isn't the late 60's and before where
the drivers would run anything in any country, as long as it had wheels.
Schumacher will never compete on a track with Gordon, who will never be on
track with McRae.  These guys may be the best in their respective race series,
but you can't directly compare them.  Logically, it's flat out impossible...

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

AndrewCounsel

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by AndrewCounsel » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:29:49

Even Johnny Herbert won 2 races in the 95' Bennetton, it must have been the
best car.




> > Since 1984, and this is full 18 years, the championship winner was
either
> > in Williams or McLaren.

> So?  They employed some very good drivers.

> Of course, you have to have a decent mix of driver and car.  I'm sure
> neither Senna or Schumacher could win a race/title in a Minardi!

> > Or his name is Micheal Schumacher. In 94 and 95 Williams was so good
that
> > even Damon Hill had a chance.

> I really don't agree.  The 1994 Williams was *not* a good car to begin
with.
> And in 1995, Williams and Benetton shared the works Renault engine
(perhaps
> an indication, by Renault, of how poor the '94 Williams was?).

> Schumacher also feels the need to have his team mate:

>   a) chosen by him
>   b) contracted to finish behind him

> which seems, well... odd.

> Senna raced alongside other top drivers - both in the same team, and in
> other top teams.  Schumacher has raced against, erm... no-one *that*
> spectacular.

> --
> Richard.

> "In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs."

AndrewCounsel

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by AndrewCounsel » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:06:01

If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART there would
be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field.

>   I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest
> gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3 cars
> for the whole race.
>   Show the entire field, throughout the race.

> -John



> >         Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so
> > isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange
> > answers, wich I don't understend.
> >         We were basicaly talked about difference between
> > American and European look at racing. The major thesis of
> > Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like
> > real racing.".
> >         Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is
> > strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles, strongly
> > present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still
> > do it much better (CART ).
> >         I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so
> > much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of
> > the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up
> > to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who
> > are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with
> > bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good
> > equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment,
> > driving comfortably all alone at the lead.
> >         4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design,
> > racing can happen only by accident.
> >         5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. At the
> > same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly
> > dull to F1 fan.
> >         To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who
> > have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time
> > F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via
> > satelite.

> > Happy New Year



> > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"

> > > >        Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving.
> > > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see
> > > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win
> > > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is
> > > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on.
> > > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind.

> > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I
> > > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires
> > > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar.
> > > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie
> > > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to discuss
> > > that right now.

> > > HAPPY NEWYEAR

> > > Andre

John Pancoas

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by John Pancoas » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:25:21

  Best comment in this thread yet.

-John


John Pancoas

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by John Pancoas » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:27:04

  Good point.  Though you'd think the sponsors of these cars would put a bit
of pressure on the FIA/TV folks to give them some air time too.

-John


> If they had points scoring positions down to 10 or 12, like CART there
would
> be a reason fot TV cameras to follow battles further down the field.


> >   I really, really enjoy F1, have for years, but boy, you hit my biggest
> > gripe in terms of tv coverage; all that's ever shown is the first 2-3
cars
> > for the whole race.
> >   Show the entire field, throughout the race.

> > -John



> > >         Thanks anyway for replying me. Because, I feel so
> > > isolated in this NG, and am always getting some strange
> > > answers, wich I don't understend.
> > >         We were basicaly talked about difference between
> > > American and European look at racing. The major thesis of
> > > Europeans is, something like, "I don't like strategy, I like
> > > real racing.".
> > >         Well, simply, I don't understand it. Because, 1) there is
> > > strategy in F1 ((just ) a little different, but, neverthelles,
strongly
> > > present ), and 2) man, if you want real racing, Americans still
> > > do it much better (CART ).
> > >         I simply cannot understand how a racing fan can put so
> > > much in F1, where, 1) during TV coverage, you see most of
> > > the time leader driving alone, sometimes you see some battle up
> > > to the first six, the rest like don't exist. 2) where the drivers who
> > > are really racing hard are the one at the back, because , with
> > > bad equipment they try to be in pace with drivers with good
> > > equipment, and 3) all atention is on a guy with the best equipment,
> > > driving comfortably all alone at the lead.
> > >         4) where most famous track is the one on whitch, by design,
> > > racing can happen only by accident.
> > >         5) where there is a little bit, or no at all, overtaking. At
the
> > > same time, racing form with a lot of overtaking, is incredibly
> > > dull to F1 fan.
> > >         To make all things more interesting, it is actually me who
> > > have been watching F1 races from 1973, and who was all the time
> > > F1 fan, till I didn't have a chance to watch American races via
> > > satelite.

> > > Happy New Year



> > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:13:26 +0100, "Mario Petrinovic"

> > > > >        Whereever there are tires, there is tire saving driving.
> > > > >Todays F1 races are won or lost on tires. You didn't see
> > > > >that driver who manage to stay 1-2 laps longer on fuel win
> > > > >races because of less ammount of fuel and better tires. Is
> > > > >this not a strategy, lol. It is tires war currently going on.
> > > > >What kind of argument this is. Are you all blind.

> > > > if you visit this newsgroup once in a while you might know that I
> > > > kinda like GPL, a racing sim based on the '67 season.. where tires
> > > > were not half as important as in nowadays Nascar.
> > > > Besides that I think there is still a major difference in stragegie
> > > > between Nascar and current F1 races but I'm a bit too tired to
discuss
> > > > that right now.

> > > > HAPPY NEWYEAR

> > > > Andre

Gerry Aitke

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Gerry Aitke » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:22:13


> Even Johnny Herbert won 2 races in the 95' Bennetton, it must have been the
> best car.

They say in motor racing that to finish first, first you must finish and
Johnny did that twice in 95 when all the other front-runners failed to
make it.
Mario Petrinovi

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Mario Petrinovi » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:42:42

        Who is Johnny Herbert. Is this a guy who overtook in
"Eau Rouge"? I mean, he is for sure much better driver then
Damon Hill, and jet he didn't won championship.
        BTW, they will never score 12 positions. It is to much for
F1 fan to remember. As much, everything over 2 hour block is
to long to watch. This is why F1 has much more spectators then
CART.


Richard Walke

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Richard Walke » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:43:19



Who is 'them'?  What were 'they' getting?!

The 1994 Williams was not an excellent car.  The Benetton was better in the
chassis department.

Senna has two DNFs, followed by a race in which he lost his life.  I
*honestly* don't believe that he was 'feeling the Schumacher pressure' in
any of those races.  I thought the bit you wrote about that, particularly
regarding Imola, was in rather bad taste.

Schumacher raced against Senna once or twice.  Senna was racing against
Psort, Piquet, Berger and Mansell on a regular basis.

I agree that Senna could be a bit rough - but don't you think Schumacher
does the same?!

--
Richard.

"I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."

Pete

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Pete » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 05:05:10

    Yes, fully. :-)

    Pete


Mario Petrinovi

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Mario Petrinovi » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 06:08:53

        Hi Rich

        Senna made offer to one who was to be next best, I forgot who,
but they were getting new engine or something like that, to drive for
free, just to drive for that team. I don't want to search the books now,
but I think Prost was alredy in that team. So, Prost was so pi$$ed off,
that he left, I think to Ferrari. Somebody correct me about year, or
team, but all else is known true.
        Regarding Senna-Schumacher issue, I was describing 1994
Brasilian GP. If you don't believe, find somewhere tape, and take a
look. You can clearly see how MS is braking Senna, until Senna spun
off, clearly under the pressure. This was his first DNF that year.
        Senna raced against Piquet, and Mansell. I alredy described you
how that finished. Do you want me to do it one more time? Senna was
last of the three.
        I know that every driver who competed with Senna looks much
bigger, and every that competed with MS suddenly pale. If my grandma
competed with Senna, she would also look bigger.
        Senna wasn't a bit rough, you should see that. Senna was without
any measure. Nobady of other drivers, even wonted to speak to him.
Regarding MS, everything except Villeneuve thing, wasn't his fault. They
made new god look like devil, because you cannot have two gods. In
Sennas case, hi was deliberate wrecker.
        Further, you should see those driving errors. Senna had more driving
errors in one race, then MS had in whole his career. You were never sure
if Senna would finish the race. That's why he have such a bad record.
        Look , I will repeat all this to you how many more times you want,
if you want me to, until you finaly get it. I been there, seen that, all the
facts are telling that. I watched F1, 10 years prior Senna even arrived.
When Senna arrived, I already had great experience in watching races,
it wasn't all new to me. Prior Senna I watched Lauda, Fittipaldi, Piquet,
even Jacques father.

        Don't take it wrong. See you

        Mario

"Well theUkraine girls really nock me out, They leave  the West behind
 And Moscow girls make me sing and shout, That Georgia's always on my mind"

BTW, I'm not so fond of Russia. In fact, I don't like it at all. - lol




> >         If you have read it you'll know that they didn't have to employ
> > them. They were getting them for free.

> Who is 'them'?  What were 'they' getting?!

> >         Any car in wich Damon Hill manage to be second or even win a
> > championship is excellent car.

> The 1994 Williams was not an excellent car.  The Benetton was better in
the
> chassis department.

> Senna has two DNFs, followed by a race in which he lost his life.  I
> *honestly* don't believe that he was 'feeling the Schumacher pressure' in
> any of those races.  I thought the bit you wrote about that, particularly
> regarding Imola, was in rather bad taste.

> >         Schumacher did race agains't top drivers. I wrote what he did to
> > Senna in that excellent car. Also I wrote how Senna finished when he was
> > in the same position.

> Schumacher raced against Senna once or twice.  Senna was racing against
> Psort, Piquet, Berger and Mansell on a regular basis.

> >         All that Senna showed during this four years is that he is equal
> > with Johansson and de Angelis, and that he is a very dirty driver, and
if
> > you see him in your mirrors, you better run for your life. Good drivers
> > use their skills to gain a position, not their shoulders.

> I agree that Senna could be a bit rough - but don't you think Schumacher
> does the same?!

> --
> Richard.

> "I'm back in the U.S.S.R. You don't know how lucky you are boy."

Gerry Aitke

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Gerry Aitke » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 06:59:27


>         Regarding Senna-Schumacher issue, I was describing 1994
> Brasilian GP. If you don't believe, find somewhere tape, and take a
> look. You can clearly see how MS is braking Senna, until Senna spun
> off, clearly under the pressure. This was his first DNF that year.

Get your facts right! Senna was BEHIND Schumacher, not in front and on
the defensive, but rather, pushing his car to it's limit in an attempt
to catch MS.
Richard Walke

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Richard Walke » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:30:08



I believe that during 1992, Senna offered to drive for Williams, for free.

However, it didn't happen.  Williams put Prost in the car.

Nah.  Prost left McLaren to go to Ferrari, then was sacked!  ;-)

Ah, yes, the Brazilian GP.  That would indeed be a mistake (although *very*
similar things happened to Mansell and Hill, also driving for Williams!).
However, that's possibly *one* such error.  How many has Schumacher made?

We'll have to agree to disagree!

--
Richard.

"C'mon... Please please me, whoa yeah, like I please you."

Mario Petrinovi

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Mario Petrinovi » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:39:48

        Yes. It looks like the stuff I was talking about was up till 21st
lap, when Schumacher came to lead, and then Senna spun in attempt
to catch.
        Thanks


Mario Petrinovi

"Boring" - "Oval Racing" and "Road Racing"

by Mario Petrinovi » Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:15:32


Ok mate. Lol. It was interesting. It's good to talk racing.
They are both good (Senna and MS ), otherwise will not
come even close to F1. Man, I'll never grow up.

"Life is very short and there's no time
 For fussing and fighting my friend"


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