rec.autos.simulators

Grand Prix (the movie)

J.Maxwel

Grand Prix (the movie)

by J.Maxwel » Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Finally I got to see 'Grand Prix' last night in it's entirety for the first
time.  I have a couple of questions and comments though.  I realize it was
mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days did
they really just let people stand around on the side of the track wherever
they wanted to?  And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, track
workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in front of
and behind cars going full speed.  Unbeliveable!!!

A question I had was about Monza.  Since this movie was about the '66
season, I was astonished at the banked sections there.  Since those banking
sections are not in GPL, does that mean they ceased driving on that section
in real life for the '67 season?  Also, I would like to see a map of the
layout used for that Monza race in '66.  I have no clue where they were
going (I did see that the banked section eventually crosses over the track
at the long back-stretch area tho.)

Finally, I have had GPL since it came out, but it never really caught on
with me.  I have been wanting to have someone in R.A.S. explain to me why it
is so popular.  But I tell ya, after watching that movie, I think I
understand it now.  I think I also need to explore the online playing of it
as well.

-Jeff

Graeme Nas

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Graeme Nas » Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Pretty much! It reached a peak at Mexico in 1970 when the crowd quite
literally lined the track the whole way round, sitting on the kerbs
etc...

The Monza banking was only used in GP The Movie for dramatic reasons. It
was last used for F1 in 1961.
The layout was quite complex. The cars would do a full lap of the road
course, and then veer right when they came back on to the main straight,
onto the banked oval, which exited back out onto the road course for
them to begin the lap again.

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash


http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
ICQ# 11257824
________________________________________________________________________________
           "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"

                             (Calvin & Hobbes)

Andre Warrin

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Andre Warrin » Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Does anyone have a map of the banked monza?

Andre

Graeme Nas

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Graeme Nas » Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Have a look at http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/

There's bound to be one there.

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash


http://www.karisma1.demon.co.uk
ICQ# 11257824
________________________________________________________________________________
           "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want"

                             (Calvin & Hobbes)

Bruce Kennewel

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Bruce Kennewel » Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:00:00

Jeff.....

Yes, in those days we were allowed to stand as close to the track as the
movie depicts.
The banked Monza section was last used for a GP in 1961.  The last Formula
to race on it was the 1500cc type.  The 3-litre cars have never had a GP on
the banked section of the circuit.


Robert Phel

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Robert Phel » Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:00:00


There's a great photo in Rainer Schleglemilch's book "Portraits of the
'60s--Formula 1" (pp. 155-156) of the 1962 Belgian GP at Spa.  There's a
big crowd sitting *on* a brick wall at the bottom of the hill going into
Eau Rouge, just inches from the track.  No fences, no barriers with the
Hill and Rodriguez Ferraris screaming right at them.

Amazing!  (Great book, BTW.)

gordo..

Grand Prix (the movie)

by gordo.. » Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:00:00



Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they
used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per
year. Phil Hill won the title in 1961 after his teammate, Von Trips,
crashed at Monza, killing himself and a number of spectators. Dan
Gurney also killed a spectator in a mishap at Spa, remarking
afterwards "This is a cruel sport". In the early 60's, the drivers did
not even use seat belts, figuring that being thrown out was slightly
less risky than staying inside a rigid, cartwheeling wreck.

As someone already mentioned, if Europe was bad, the lack of crowd
control at venues like Mexico and Argentina was unbelievable!

  -- Doug G

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Bruce Kennewel

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Bruce Kennewel » Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:00:00

It didn't only occur in Europe.
Have a look at the following two pix, taken during the 1959 Tasman Cup at
Longford, Tasmania.

http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59.jpg
http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/brucek/hmrc/images/Tasman%20Cup/longf59b...

--
Regards,
Bruce.
------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------


> As someone already mentioned, if Europe was bad, the lack of crowd
> control at venues like Mexico and Argentina was unbelievable!

Thomas A. Leitge

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Thomas A. Leitge » Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:00:00




> >I have a couple of questions and comments though.  I realize it was
> > mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days
> did
> > they really just let people stand around on the side of the track
> wherever
> > they wanted to?  And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza,
> track
> > workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in
> front of
> > and behind cars going full speed.  Unbeliveable!!!

> Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they
> used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per
> year.

Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have
a 'wall of spectators' ...

Thats's also why I absolutely love to watch a rally live ... so far I
did only see austrian championship with some WRCs in the field, but I
will try to go to San Remo next time ...
Its unbelievable how much you can 'feel' the cars standing next to the
track, perhaps 1 meter from the race line. But you better select your
position carefully ... what some spectators are doing is absolutely mad
- standing on the outer side of the corner, directly behind braking
zones in emergency exits, ... and even worse is, that some parents have
their children there; an *** my have the chance to get away if
something goes wrong and he is looking at the cars; no chance for kids,
who dont pay that much attention ...

Thoams
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A-8223 Stubenberg, Vockenberg 108; Styria - Austria - Europe
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jet Jagu

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Jet Jagu » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00

On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:34:14 +0200, "Thomas A. Leitgeb"





>> >I have a couple of questions and comments though.  I realize it was
>> > mostly (if not all) actual race coverage, but man, back in those days
>> did
>> > they really just let people stand around on the side of the track
>> wherever
>> > they wanted to?  And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza,
>> track
>> > workers and rescue personnel would run across the track right in
>> front of
>> > and behind cars going full speed.  Unbeliveable!!!

>> Yes, and they must have had a different attitude back then because they
>> used to lose a few spectators in addition to a couple of drivers per
>> year.

>Take a look at rally-sport nowadays ... especially Portugal ... you have
>a 'wall of spectators' ...

They sometimes lose a few spectators today, too.  This year at the
Baja 500, one spectator was killed and 6 were seriously injured when a
truck rolled into a crowd.  All that was separating the crowd from the
track was a thin rope.

---
Jet Jaguar
I have a spam blocking address.  Replying to me is like pulling teeth.
Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/
MSTie #54297

Now I've been stung by a paper wasp, a yellowjacket, and a hornet.

Bart

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Bart » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00

<<..man, back in those days did they really just let people stand around
on the side of the track wherever they wanted to?>>

Ahhh...pretty much. Haybales and fencing had long been used, Armco was
just coming into vogue, but crowd control -- especially at places like
Spa -- was problematic.

<<And during the crash scenes at Monoco and Monza, track workers and
rescue personnel would run across the track right in front of and behind
cars going full speed.  Unbelievable!!!>>

Still happens at LeMans!
<< A question I had was about Monza.  Since this movie was about the '66
season, I was astonished at the banked sections there.  Since those
banking sections are not in GPL, does that mean they ceased driving on
that section in real life for the '67 season?  Also, I would like to see
a map of the layout used for that Monza race in '66.  I have no clue
where they were going (I did see that the banked section eventually
crosses over the track at the long back-stretch area tho.)

I could send you a gif of the maps in private email if you wish

race was definitely NOT run on the combined Monza circuit with banked
curves and overpass: no GP had been run at that configuration since 1961.
John Frankenheimer just thought it looked cool (how else do you get your
dying hero driver halfawy up a tree?)

From the inception of the World Grand Prix Championship in 1950 (and pre-
war as well), the Monza GP had been run on the 6.3 km circuit that
included (from the start line) the right-hand Curva Grande, the gradual
left-hand Curva della Roggia, the two RH Lesmos, the LH Curva del
Serraglio, the LH Curva del Vialone, and finally the square-double RH
Curva di Vedano.

Prior to the 1955 Italian GP, massive construction added a high-speed
(well, it was supposed to be...) banked oval which was "offset-overlaid"
on the original course, providing some more named curves and straights:
The two highly-banked ends were called the Curva Nord alta velocita
(which is where the overpass crosses the short straight of the original
course between Serraglio and Vialone) and Curva Sud alta velocita; the
Curva Nord was connected to the Curva Sud by the new Rettilineo di
Levante, and the Curva Sud rejoined the original track just before the
Parabolica (the newly configured and re-named Curva di Vedano) along
theRettilineo Tribune. The "join" at the Parabolica was kinda goofy and
dangerous, in the Italian tradition. The new combined course was 10km in
length. Here's how Mike Lang (Grand Prix! Volumes 1&2 1950-1973)
describes the track for the 1955 race:

"The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the
cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside
of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join
the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars
kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to
complete the full lap."

If it sounds confusing (even allowing for Lang's aversion to punctuation)
it was that, and more: the banked concrete slabs were, from day one,
rough as a cob, and took a fearful toll on machinery (especially tires),
as did the centripetal forces generated by the steep banking -- basically
the cars had to be set up stiff as hell not to bottom out under the G-
load, but the poor surface of the banks combined with super-stiff set-ups
shook everything out of the cars, including the driver's teeth. Several
drivers reported having vision so blurred by the rough surface that they
were practically blind at times...and all this at 180 or so. What fun!

The new 10km combined track was used again in '56, but locally-beloved
Ferrari had nothing but problems with their unfortunate Englebert tires,
which just disintegrated on the rough banking, so in '57 the race
reverted to the more-or-less original track (the final right-hander Curva
di Vedano had metamorphosed into the now-familiar Curva Parabolica). The
Italian GP stayed at this configuration until 1960, when the race
organizers thought they'd have another go at the full combined 10km
course. Whereupon all the British teams boycotted the race, which left a
pretty thin field (5th and 6th places were taken by F2 cars!). In 1961,
the full combined course was used again, and this would be the very last
time for a GP race. Even the Brits came.

There is currently a move afoot (spearheaded by British pop star and
Ferrari fanatico Chris Rea) to "Save The Monza Banking", as the Italian
government is threatening to tear the old honkers down (Monza, of course,
is in the old Royal Park, which is essentially Italian Government
Property). If you want to learn more about the Save The Banking movement,
check out Autosport magazine at:

www.autosport.com

PS Let me know if you want those track map gifs

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Olav K. Malm

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Olav K. Malm » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00



> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the
> cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside
> of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join
> the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars
> kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to
> complete the full lap."

Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and
then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica and
the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance to the
banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the left of
parabolica.. They were really mad......

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

Richard G Cleg

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Richard G Cleg » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00



:> "The start was situated in the same place as before and from there the
:> cars ran round the original circuit but on returning kept to the inside
:> of the straight past the grandstands [the Rettilineo Tribune-BB] to join
:> the new banked section. On returning to the main striaght again teh cars
:> kept to the outside [which led them onto the original circuit--BB] to
:> complete the full lap."

: Hmm, as far as i remember, in Grand Prix they start off with the banking and
: then the road course. Are you telling me that the traffic out of Parabolica
: and the traffic out of Curva Sud changed lane ? As long as the entrance
: to the banking is on the right of the straight and the exit is on the
: left of parabolica.. They were really mad......

  No - you don't have to change lane - it's really really important that
you don't in fact :-)  It took me a while to work this one out

 To GPL Monza   To banking
     course      ^
        ^        |
        |    /    /
      |    |/    /
      |    |    |
      |    |    |
      |         |
      |         |
      |         |
        GPL start/finish
         straight
      |         |
      |         |
      |    |     \
      |    |\     \
      |    | \     \
        ^        Parabolica
        |        
    from banking

  So - let's see - from the start-finish straight, follow the "normal"
GPL monza course all the way round to Parabolica.  On exiting
parabolica, keep RIGHT.  Turn off the "normal" course just after
the end of the pits - you can see a red "wall" of adverts there in
GPL (some people, like me, crash into this on their first lap, having
taken a "wrong turn").  You'd now be on the banking.  The banking
crosses the GPL course - you can see it overhead after the second
Lesmo in fact.  You then re-enter the start finish straight from the
left - keep LEFT and down the Start-finish straight exiting on the left
down the GPL course.

  Phew....

  Well, that's how I think it works - I'm sure someone will tell me if
I'm wrong.

--
Richard G. Clegg     Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.

www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Bart

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Bart » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00



The "Motor Racing is Dangerous" sign on that straw-bale-and-chicken-wire
"fence" is especially droll...

BB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Bart

Grand Prix (the movie)

by Bart » Fri, 02 Jul 1999 04:00:00



Thanks for the URL -- very cool.

BB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.