- David Cook
Interesting. Here's a copy of the response from one of the developers about
this product:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~hg/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33590
[qoute]
Dear sim racers,
I have had many inquiries after prizes and availability on the Reaction
Force Feedback system. Therefor I thought it might be useful to give some
more information on the system in this forum.
The wheel is already available but it is designed for professional use now
(racing teams, drivers, shows, arcades). The prize is now circa Euro 5000,
depending on the exact type and options included.
We are planning to develop a product for home users too but this will take
some time as we have to bring the prize down substancially, we have to find
less expensive parts and a more basic set up with a simple USB interface to
the game. We do not want to bring the quality and the force feel down.
Also very important however is the quality of the torque data output coming
from the game to the FFB wheel. The wheel can be fantastic, if the vehicle
dynamics model in the game is bad, the result is still not good enough.
Various race simulations are now improving their physics model for and with
us.
Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
very important and also very well noticed by the driver..
The most important consequence is that simulation software developers are
motivated to improve their vehicle dynamics models and thus their torque
output data. The quality of the games will improve even more.
On the pictures you see an extra computer. This is our own computer with our
own characteristic for the force feel of the steering unit. As long as the
torque data coming from the game is not good enough, we add our own data to
reach a good result. In the future we will leave our own computer out of the
loop.
I hope this information gives some answers to questions you have. If there
are more questions about racing simulation and motion hardware please visit
our site; www.f1simulator.com
kind regards, Robert Hoevers, Reaction Force Feedback
[/qoute]
I woudn't be interested if it wasn't affordable. But will it still be good
once they've made it affordable?
Ice D
Thanks for posting this here.
All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin' and
Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
"glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that was
used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried. Better
still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
carbon motor brushes.)
It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
control...
-- Doug Milliken
http://www.millikenresearch.com
> http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~hg/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33590
> [qoute]
> Dear sim racers,
> I have had many inquiries after prizes and availability on the Reaction
> Force Feedback system. Therefor I thought it might be useful to give some
> more information on the system in this forum.
> The wheel is already available but it is designed for professional use now
> (racing teams, drivers, shows, arcades). The prize is now circa Euro 5000,
> depending on the exact type and options included.
> We are planning to develop a product for home users too but this will take
> some time as we have to bring the prize down substancially, we have to find
> less expensive parts and a more basic set up with a simple USB interface to
> the game. We do not want to bring the quality and the force feel down.
> Also very important however is the quality of the torque data output coming
> from the game to the FFB wheel. The wheel can be fantastic, if the vehicle
> dynamics model in the game is bad, the result is still not good enough.
> Various race simulations are now improving their physics model for and with
> us.
> Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> very important and also very well noticed by the driver..
> The most important consequence is that simulation software developers are
> motivated to improve their vehicle dynamics models and thus their torque
> output data. The quality of the games will improve even more.
> On the pictures you see an extra computer. This is our own computer with our
> own characteristic for the force feel of the steering unit. As long as the
> torque data coming from the game is not good enough, we add our own data to
> reach a good result. In the future we will leave our own computer out of the
> loop.
> I hope this information gives some answers to questions you have. If there
> are more questions about racing simulation and motion hardware please visit
> our site; www.f1simulator.com
> kind regards, Robert Hoevers, Reaction Force Feedback
> [/qoute]
> I woudn't be interested if it wasn't affordable. But will it still be good
> once they've made it affordable?
> Ice D
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/~hg/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33590
and what the hell does "a reality feel of around 90%" mean?
wish I had that kind of money to spend on *** hardware... :(
I don't get this either. if the quality and the force feel is equal;
what's different?
and I DON'T GET IT! name one FF-wheel for which this statement
doesn't hold true?
I'm not really pissed off, I just think it just sounds like suit speak
from computerworld. the wheel looks cool, though, but I can't find
any shots of the pedals. or any info on them, for that matter.
--
Gunnar
#31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo: 2
DE RECTIS NON TOLERANDUM EST
And people think a HyperStimulator is expensive.
TB
>> Well, we always wondered if the *** controller companies would go FF.
>> Looks like Ball Racing is gonna be doing Force Feedback albeit rather
>> expensively from what I've read <g> We knew it would be though, didn't
> we?
>> I found this link at High Gear:
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/:
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/~hg/news.php?day=21&month=1&year=02#1316
> Interesting. Here's a copy of the response from one of the developers about
> this product:
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/~hg/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33590
> [qoute]
> Dear sim racers,
> I have had many inquiries after prizes and availability on the Reaction
> Force Feedback system. Therefor I thought it might be useful to give some
> more information on the system in this forum.
> The wheel is already available but it is designed for professional use now
> (racing teams, drivers, shows, arcades). The prize is now circa Euro 5000,
> depending on the exact type and options included.
> We are planning to develop a product for home users too but this will take
> some time as we have to bring the prize down substancially, we have to find
> less expensive parts and a more basic set up with a simple USB interface to
> the game. We do not want to bring the quality and the force feel down.
> Also very important however is the quality of the torque data output coming
> from the game to the FFB wheel. The wheel can be fantastic, if the vehicle
> dynamics model in the game is bad, the result is still not good enough.
> Various race simulations are now improving their physics model for and with
> us.
> Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> very important and also very well noticed by the driver..
> The most important consequence is that simulation software developers are
> motivated to improve their vehicle dynamics models and thus their torque
> output data. The quality of the games will improve even more.
> On the pictures you see an extra computer. This is our own computer with our
> own characteristic for the force feel of the steering unit. As long as the
> torque data coming from the game is not good enough, we add our own data to
> reach a good result. In the future we will leave our own computer out of the
> loop.
> I hope this information gives some answers to questions you have. If there
> are more questions about racing simulation and motion hardware please visit
> our site; www.f1simulator.com
> kind regards, Robert Hoevers, Reaction Force Feedback
> [/qoute]
> I woudn't be interested if it wasn't affordable. But will it still be good
> once they've made it affordable?
> Ice D
> Thanks for posting this here.
> > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin' and
> Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
> tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
> "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
> to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that was
> used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried. Better
> still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
> run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
> carbon motor brushes.)
> It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
> application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
> control...
Yup, a good friend and I will soon have two (linked) at his house. His had
a hard life (over 100K plays -- count the quarters!!), and only cost $150,
it needs a new monitor and some other things fixed, but all the other
expensive bits seem to be fine.
I can confirm that RD is still fun to play<grin>.
-- Doug
> -Larry
> > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics
> model is
> > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin'
> and
> > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
> > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
> > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
> > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that
> was
> > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried.
> Better
> > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
> > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
> > carbon motor brushes.)
> > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
> > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
> > control...
> > -- Doug Milliken
> > http://www.millikenresearch.com
Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to figure out
some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
-- Doug
> > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin' and
> > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
> > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
> > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
> > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that was
> > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried. Better
> > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
> > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
> > carbon motor brushes.)
> > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
> > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
> > control...
SB
"My current proposal for advancing force feedback--do what MS and nVidia did to Direct3D8 with programmable vertex shaders to
DirectInput--create a simple DSP-like byte code that could be compiled into microprograms that the wheels could run in hardware, so
the wheels could do prediction code without
having to USB back to the computer, wait for the next physics frame, USB back to the wheel and from there to the motor--I think you
could achieve a really "tight" and responsive feel with this method and reduce or eliminate the spiking and self-oscillation
problems that are currently endemic to any "non-canned" force feedback implementation, and a 30-cent CPU should be powerful enough
to implement this."
> Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to figure out
> some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
> -- Doug
> > That would be great Doug, but the way I read it, they still
> > intend to use DirectX or I-force or whatever to control the
> > wheel. I think he's just pointing out that some sims do a
> > better job of simulating a car than others, and the
> > resulting FF effects are better.
> > --
> > Pat Dotson
> > > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> > > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> > > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin' and
> > > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
> > > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
> > > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
> > > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that was
> > > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried. Better
> > > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
> > > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
> > > carbon motor brushes.)
> > > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
> > > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
> > > control...
This is *** -- a patch on a patch, on a patch.
It's so simple when the model talks directly to the hardware...
I mean, while you are at it, why not have the steering wheel run
the car physics and tell the PC what viewpoint to display?
-- Doug Milliken
> SB
> "My current proposal for advancing force feedback--do what MS and nVidia did to Direct3D8 with programmable vertex shaders to
> DirectInput--create a simple DSP-like byte code that could be compiled into microprograms that the wheels could run in hardware, so
> the wheels could do prediction code without
> having to USB back to the computer, wait for the next physics frame, USB back to the wheel and from there to the motor--I think you
> could achieve a really "tight" and responsive feel with this method and reduce or eliminate the spiking and self-oscillation
> problems that are currently endemic to any "non-canned" force feedback implementation, and a 30-cent CPU should be powerful enough
> to implement this."
> > Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to figure out
> > some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
> > -- Doug
> > > That would be great Doug, but the way I read it, they still
> > > intend to use DirectX or I-force or whatever to control the
> > > wheel. I think he's just pointing out that some sims do a
> > > better job of simulating a car than others, and the
> > > resulting FF effects are better.
> > > --
> > > Pat Dotson
> > > > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model of the
> > > > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this physics model is
> > > > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race Drivin' and
> > > > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor control
> > > > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or other
> > > > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from the model
> > > > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > > > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive that was
> > > > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've tried. Better
> > > > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power amp to
> > > > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction from
> > > > carbon motor brushes.)
> > > > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating the
> > > > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do realtime
> > > > control...
> This is *** -- a patch on a patch, on a patch.
> It's so simple when the model talks directly to the hardware...
> I mean, while you are at it, why not have the steering wheel run
> the car physics and tell the PC what viewpoint to display?
> -- Doug Milliken
> > Since we're on the subject, I thought I'd throw in a quote from MGI's
> > > Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to figure
out
> > > some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
> > > -- Doug
> > > > That would be great Doug, but the way I read it, they still
> > > > intend to use DirectX or I-force or whatever to control the
> > > > wheel. I think he's just pointing out that some sims do a
> > > > better job of simulating a car than others, and the
> > > > resulting FF effects are better.
> > > > --
> > > > Pat Dotson
> > > > > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > > > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model
of the
> > > > > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this
physics model is
> > > > > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race
Drivin' and
> > > > > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor
control
> > > > > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or
other
> > > > > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from
the model
> > > > > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > > > > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive
that was
> > > > > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've
tried. Better
> > > > > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power
amp to
> > > > > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction
from
> > > > > carbon motor brushes.)
> > > > > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating
the
> > > > > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do
realtime
> > > > > control...
It's all about latency for sure. And the standard M$ software doesn't seem
to give a damn about latency for game controllers...
My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack -- I was really trying to
spur someone (some group?) to develop a more elegant way to talk to PC
hardware. Seems like all kinds of games would profit from this. But I'm
not going to be able to do it, I'm a car guy, not a game programmer.
-- Doug
> > This is *** -- a patch on a patch, on a patch.
> > It's so simple when the model talks directly to the hardware...
> > I mean, while you are at it, why not have the steering wheel run
> > the car physics and tell the PC what viewpoint to display?
> > -- Doug Milliken
> > > Since we're on the subject, I thought I'd throw in a quote from MGI's
> Dave Pollatsek that caught my eye a while back in a
> > > non-FF-related thread. Might be of interest here...
> > > SB
> > > "My current proposal for advancing force feedback--do what MS and nVidia
> did to Direct3D8 with programmable vertex shaders to
> > > DirectInput--create a simple DSP-like byte code that could be compiled
> into microprograms that the wheels could run in hardware, so
> > > the wheels could do prediction code without
> > > having to USB back to the computer, wait for the next physics frame, USB
> back to the wheel and from there to the motor--I think you
> > > could achieve a really "tight" and responsive feel with this method and
> reduce or eliminate the spiking and self-oscillation
> > > problems that are currently endemic to any "non-canned" force feedback
> implementation, and a 30-cent CPU should be powerful enough
> > > to implement this."
> > > > Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to figure
> out
> > > > some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
> > > > -- Doug
> > > > > That would be great Doug, but the way I read it, they still
> > > > > intend to use DirectX or I-force or whatever to control the
> > > > > wheel. I think he's just pointing out that some sims do a
> > > > > better job of simulating a car than others, and the
> > > > > resulting FF effects are better.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Pat Dotson
> > > > > > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > > > > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics model
> of the
> > > > > > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this
> physics model is
> > > > > > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin', Race
> Drivin' and
> > > > > > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF motor
> control
> > > > > > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API or
> other
> > > > > > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct from
> the model
> > > > > > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > > > > > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor drive
> that was
> > > > > > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've
> tried. Better
> > > > > > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog power
> amp to
> > > > > > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of friction
> from
> > > > > > carbon motor brushes.)
> > > > > > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too. Separating
> the
> > > > > > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do
> realtime
> > > > > > control...
> It's all about latency for sure. And the standard M$ software doesn't
seem
> to give a damn about latency for game controllers...
> My comments weren't meant to be a personal attack -- I was really trying
to
> spur someone (some group?) to develop a more elegant way to talk to PC
> hardware. Seems like all kinds of games would profit from this. But I'm
> not going to be able to do it, I'm a car guy, not a game programmer.
> -- Doug
> > (arguing against Doug for no good reason, especially as he's surely
> > right...)
> > The reason I suggested that was because USB and Windows conspire to give
us
> > too much latency to get good feedback without wheelside prediction--I
was
> > thinking more of "consumer" wheels, where my change would be quite cheap
to
> > implement. A custom interface card would be awesome, though; however,
> > trying to get a slice of CPU time to service it reliably every few
> > milliseconds seems to get harder every year... trying to keep our
> > sound-mixing thread scheduled ahead of the output buffer was hard
enough...
> > we need OpenGL for DOS or something.
> > -Dave
> > > This is *** -- a patch on a patch, on a patch.
> > > It's so simple when the model talks directly to the hardware...
> > > I mean, while you are at it, why not have the steering wheel run
> > > the car physics and tell the PC what viewpoint to display?
> > > -- Doug Milliken
> > > > Since we're on the subject, I thought I'd throw in a quote from
MGI's
> > Dave Pollatsek that caught my eye a while back in a
> > > > non-FF-related thread. Might be of interest here...
> > > > SB
> > > > "My current proposal for advancing force feedback--do what MS and
nVidia
> > did to Direct3D8 with programmable vertex shaders to
> > > > DirectInput--create a simple DSP-like byte code that could be
compiled
> > into microprograms that the wheels could run in hardware, so
> > > > the wheels could do prediction code without
> > > > having to USB back to the computer, wait for the next physics frame,
USB
> > back to the wheel and from there to the motor--I think you
> > > > could achieve a really "tight" and responsive feel with this method
and
> > reduce or eliminate the spiking and self-oscillation
> > > > problems that are currently endemic to any "non-canned" force
feedback
> > implementation, and a 30-cent CPU should be powerful enough
> > > > to implement this."
> > > > > Oh well, the way I read it, it seemed that they were going to
figure
> > out
> > > > > some way to get around the win-doze interfaces.
> > > > > -- Doug
> > > > > > That would be great Doug, but the way I read it, they still
> > > > > > intend to use DirectX or I-force or whatever to control the
> > > > > > wheel. I think he's just pointing out that some sims do a
> > > > > > better job of simulating a car than others, and the
> > > > > > resulting FF effects are better.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Pat Dotson
> > > > > > > Thanks for posting this here.
> > > > > > > > Because our system runs directly on the vehicle dynamics
model
> > of the
> > > > > > > > simulation software (e.g. GP3, F12001), the quality of this
> > physics model is
> > > > > > > All the games I've been involved with, Atari Hard Drivin',
Race
> > Drivin' and
> > > > > > > Nascar Silicon Speedway have had the steering wheel and FF
motor
> > control
> > > > > > > tightly integrated with the vehicle (physics) model -- no API
or
> > other
> > > > > > > "glue/interface" code was used. Command torque went direct
from
> > the model
> > > > > > > to the D-A converter that drove the motor.
> > > > > > > Even with the slightly noisy/buzzy digital (switching) motor
drive
> > that was
> > > > > > > used in HD and RD, the steering is still among the best I've
> > tried. Better
> > > > > > > still was a HD development version that used an audio/analog
power
> > amp to
> > > > > > > run the DC torque motor, pure silk (with a tiny amount of
friction
> > from
> > > > > > > carbon motor brushes.)
> > > > > > > It's nice that someone else has figured this out too.
Separating
> > the
> > > > > > > application software from the hardware makes it tough to do
> > realtime
> > > > > > > control...
