rec.autos.simulators

I'm just going to keep this post to one topic because it could (will) get
long. I'm willing to say the game is a 10/10 if people can tell me I'm wrong
in the following post. I actually hope you guys can do just that, so I can
drop my concerns and just enjoy it, as is.

I really want to love this sim but I have some serious concerns as to the
accuracy of the handling of the cars. They just seem to be too wild. Even
for '67 F1. It is certainly possible to adapt and put up fast times in GPL,
but it's the way you have to drive the cars in order to get those times that
has me wondering.  If you look at the replays by the beta testers and the
developers (including Kaemmer) which are included with the sim, the cars are
all over the track, criss-crossing the drive line (which is the fastest and
smoothest line around the track) instead of holding close to it. I watched
each one from the chase view. Then I checked the AI, and they straddle the
drive line and stay very, very, smooth through a race or practice session. I
didn't see one replay where the testers were able to hold the drive line for
very long through a lap. Not even close actually. The AI cars seem to drive
the way I'd expect the rest (or at least the more dedicated and talented) of
us should, yet even though the testers and developers have been racing this
sim almost every day (I'm guessing) for maybe 5 months, they can't do it.
Also, when I read the reports of the Papy Cup races, there is an awful lot
of crashing going on and Alison said that when they would run a race with
"shift-r" unavailable, it was not uncommon for no one (or few) to finish the
race. With all the experience those people have with the sim (and their
talent), why aren't the races more realistic in their results? I just don't
get the impression that anyone can run the same lap times as the AI, and do
it with the same smoothness and control (holding the race line which is the
fastest path around the track) that they do. Also, could anyone drive that
way for a full race (or even 5 laps?).

If not, then why? Either the AI is wrong or there is something wrong with
the drive model. They can't both be right or the most experienced drivers
(like Kaemmer) would look close to the same way on the track as the AI. The
cars react too much to the smallest steering input IMO. I've seen some film
of cars from that era and they looked to be fairly smooth around the course.
Even in the rain (which IMO would be a mess to try to drive in with GPL).
What I noticed about the real life drivers was that they really whipped the
wheel around. Even in F1 today, real life drivers wrench that wheel quite a
bit. In GPL, watch an in cab view of an available replay, or of yourself if
your fairly good, and look at how little the steering wheel moves. People
are driving by only moving the wheel a few degrees. There's about as much
arm movement as an 80 year old Sunday driver needs to drive his Caddy on the
open highway. There's even less movement by the AI drivers. I think someone
described the steering as "ultra power steering" in a post here at r.a.s. It
feels much too sensitive, especially compared to real life. The
linear/non-linear slider isn't the answer. I've heard these '67 cars
described as "overpowered, wooly handling, monsters" a million times. So why
is the steering SO delicate? Marc Collins has said that a speed sensitive
slider would be best good for this sim and I strongly agree.

If you just step back and try to approach the sim with a fresh view (even if
you love it), and look at the way the cars handle, and how the steering
responds to your input, something seems wrong. The way the best drivers'
cars look as they do a competitive lap looks wrong, or at the least,
considerably different from the AI. The results from races by people with
months of practice time, and more talent than the average sim driver, are
very surprising considering the amount of accidents that are still
occurring.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

Oh, they could all drive exactly along those blackened tyre marks
if they chose. But they chose not to :) Quite often the very fastest
line through a corner depends entirely on your driving style, and if
you're in race mode or qualify mode. in a race you generally want to
stick to a nice line such as following that driveline so as to not
veer all over the track and cause accidents - but when you're on your
own you can use the track a bit more maniacally.

why do they crash a lot? they're pushing too hard, that's why. it is
so easy to push too hard in a sim - since you know you're not going
to break your neck if you wipe out.
Many people out there could drive very consistant, smooth, fast laps
at will. and you will be able to as well - once you've sorted out
ideal setups for your style, and have put in quite a chunk of practice
and developed your driving technique.

Hmmm. I have no trouble with steering. But, if you're used to playing
a game or a car where you yank the wheel around chronically to get
anywhere (NFS1, NFS2, SODA, etc) then go hop in the GPL car, it takes
a few laps to get used to the steering and accelerator and brakes
again :)
Consider your road car - if you are going around a turn at 110kph or
so, how much do you turn the wheel? a tiny amount. now imagine if you
were turning at 200kph, the amount you move the wheel would be even
less again. which sounds remarkably like GPL...

nothing feels wrong to me...
but i only have the demo :) even with shitty setups in the demo it
all feels right.
And don't blame the game if people go around crashing - when i watch
motorsports on TV it's amazing how often drivers***up and make
mistakes and even crash - even at the very top levels. Those pro guys
are able to drive right on the edge of their ability without hardly
making mistakes, yet they still do. Us mere mortals don't have such
good ability to drive close to our limits without introducing ourselves
to the scenery with alarming regularity - yet we try to drive just like
the pros do - of course we will crash more often. The sensible approach
would be to drive WELL within your limits - and make a setup that
gives you more leeway for error, but almost no one ever does that.

Not sure if i made any useful points there apart from merely
disagreeing :)

Grant.

On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:27:21 -0400, "David G Fisher"

A few comments...

- First of all the laps being driven are probably "hotlaps", which
mean the driver is on the limit and it becomes progressively more and
more difficult to follow the lines.

- Secondly, the lines are just "a line" around the circuit, not THE
line around the circuit. Take the run from Hugenholtzbocht at
Zandvoort - I've tried a number of lines through that right-left-right
section, brake late and late apex, smoothly drive through, drift
through on opposite lock, early apex and pitch the car through -
that's a number of variations even before you take into account
irregularities and errors in my driving. The line is there partly as
an indication of ideal line for new drivers, partly as an indication
of braking points and partly to enhance the realism and atmosphere -
it's not something that will necessarily benefit you by following it.
Also, in the real world this line is far less obvious and you don't
have the advantage of watching it from the angles you can in GPL. That
makes the difference more pronounced.

- Finally IMO it is possible to follow the lines and be that smooth,
but I can't do it and be quick. That's more down to a lack of ability
on my part, going in slightly too hot to corners and running wide on
exit etc.

This is from convenience I think. You can make the wheel move massive
amounts by adjusting the lock but small movements are quicker.

Maybe someone from Papy could stop by and explain what they can since
to comment on the internal workings of the game engine are not my
domain. GPL models a racecar in vastly more detail than anything that
has gone before, and I can assure you that is not marketing froth to
sell the game, the stuff Mike Lescault described was the mere tip of
the iceberg. Sometimes in testing Dave would describe a tweak or piece
of fine-tuning he had done within the game to a collective "You're
modelling THAT???" from the test team. What I'm getting at is that I
would be amazed if the game did feel similar to what we know, and
perhaps that is the issue? The last time I found GPL to be "funny" to
control was when I installed my PDPI-L4, and it took some messing with
linearity, lock and DirectInput to get it back to what I feel is a
smooth and accurate feel.

I believe that's because we suffer a lack of talent, a lack of
self-preservation, a lack of racecraft and a lack of patience. All of
the people you refer to can run many, many laps without incident, but
when you're following someone and faster an accident tends to happen
for the reasons outlined above. Moves are made based upon what is
succesful against the AI (who reflect the self-preservation instinct),
not what can be succesful against a human. This generates more
accidents than would otherwise be expected, since the precarious
balance between fear and the desire to win is totally lost. Practice
and respect for opponents will help I believe.

Cheers!
John

John, could you please describe what you did to get GPL to feel smooth
with your PDPI gameport? I've jsut installed one in my rig and the cars
seem very "nervous" around center now... I've moved the linearity slider
in GPL more toward non-linear than I normally run it, but that hasn't
completely restored the feel...

Before I go back to an analog gameport (CH Gamecard3), I'd like to try
whatever changes you've made...

Thanks in advance,

David

My thoughts exactly.  My question would be this:  With the right
combination of throttle/brakes/gear changes at the right times, would it
be possible to drive like the AI, and as fast?  I've yet to see it done
by the "hotlappers".  Maybe it's just easier to swing the backend out and
slide around the corners...

Myself, I have to say that last night at Kyalami (my first attempt) I
resolved to just make it around for a couple of laps during practice to
get my tires hot.  Much to my amazement, my cornering improved
dramatically!  My brakes didn't even lock up as much.  I even managed to
qualify in the middle of the pack (albeit in novice mode).

My goal is to drive like the AI.  Can it be done?

Devon

They may be hotlaps, but the times are very close to that of the AI. The
difference in the way the laps look is what I'm talking about. Smooth and
under control by the AI, loose and kind of wild by the real drivers. They
really do look very, very, different. I did a fast lap at Silverstone myself
and it looked nothing like the AI. The replay that came with the game on
that track is the same.

I know you don't have to follow the line exactly, but it seems to be laid
out along the optimim path for each track. At least as far as I can tell.
The AI certainly follows it religiously. In real life racing, a drive line
appears because everyone knows the ultimate line and trys to stay on it in
order to be as fast as possible. The AI in GPL does this.

Can they follow the lines, be as smooth as the AI, AND still match the AI's
lap times, especially in qualifying? Can they do it lap after lap? I would
expect after all these months that they could. If you just use the drive
line as a reference point, it's easy to see people are drifting in turns,
swirving along the straights, and basically loose all over the track.  Even
if the line wasn't there, you can see where mistakes are being made. They
make up for the control mistakes by being quicker on the throttle, and with
their braking.These are people who have been driving the game for 5 months
already, and I know they have a high talent level.

Every single element of the car could be modeled, but the procedure for
doing so has to be right or what do you have? Accuracy in the drive model is
what I want as much as anyone but it doesn't look like that accuracy is
being seen on the track.

Reading those reports, people are often times crashing, or at least losing
control,
without it being caused by the presence of another driver. Again,
after all the hours and months of practice, the results seem out of whack
from what I'd expect and I don't blame the drivers as many of them are as
good as anyone is going to get in GPL. It looks like they are losing control
too often.

I'll keep it simple and say that by now, I'd expect the most experienced and
talented drivers in GPL (like the testers, developers,  and Kaemmer himself)
to resemble the AI to the point where it's hard to tell them apart in a
replay. If they can't, who will?

The AI cars look like the real life drivers did in the film I've seen. So
far, I haven't seen any GPL driver who comes close. This is the key point.

Assuming the physics model is accurate (which I have no reason or desire to
dispute) then why such a vast difference in the way very talented and
experienced drivers are able to control the car during a fast lap? If
someone can send me a replay of themselves which shows them to be as smooth,
under control, AND as fast as the AI in qualifying, or even a full race, I'd
appreciate it. If that replay shows it done over a number of laps, even
better. If not, then I don't know what to think.

David G Fisher
DmndDave

% > The last time I found GPL to be "funny" to
% > control was when I installed my PDPI-L4, and it took some messing with
% > linearity, lock and DirectInput to get it back to what I feel is a
% > smooth and accurate feel.

% John, could you please describe what you did to get GPL to feel smooth
% with your PDPI gameport? . . . <snip>

And while you are at it, can you please explain your experiences with
DirectInput vs. Generic (if any)?

Thanks.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You are absolutely right on all points but I'm afraid that you will not
get any sympathy from this NG and I'l probably get flamed for my
heresy.  After all these months of the vast majority of posters
proclaiming how great the Demo was and saying it is the best thing since
sliced bread and only slightly behind the Second Coming of Christ, do
you really think they will criticize it now,HA!!! Anyway, your points
should be of no suprise since the Demo had the same
shortcommings."TO-BE-FLAMED" Paul

On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:20:33 -0400, "David G Fisher"

You miss the point. You compare a) the drivers b) the AI, and c) the
movie. The drivers are hotlapping, the AI have to be able to match
those times or they will not be competitive with the way humans drive,
and the people in the movie are trying to make a movie without killing
themselves.

The AI match the movie because that's how they're supposed to look and
drive. They do the same speeds we do because they need to match us. We
have no fear and fling the cars round like madmen. For that reason the
look differs.

There is no optimum line, just "a" line. The AI follow it because
that's what they do. If you watch a field of humans they will all take
slightly different lines due to errors and differing styles.

In real life racing a line appears _averaging_ the laps that the
drivers are following - it is not "one" line it is an amalgam of all
the lines driven which comes to resemble one wider line.

See above - that would not make sense.

What you see is not issues with the drive model but with
interpretation of what you see.

I've seen Schumacher drive off the track under no pressure - if he can
do then surely it's allowed for others who have less practice, lass
talent and lack the feel of the car under their butt? Whatever we may
think we are not racecar drivers, and we lack the physical and mental
ability to place a car, right line, every time. There are exceptions,
and if you see Matt Sentell and Dave Kaemmer driving you would see it
is certainly possible. I watched Doug Arnao's replays at the Ring of
all places and he wa doing laps within ONE second of each other - one
second after more than 8 minutes of driving! Consistency is certainly
possible but it takes practice, skill and dedication.

I don't agree at all that the human players should resemble the AI,
but they should be smooth, consistent and error free. The top drivers
are IMO.

I haven't seen the release version but I imagine the laps on there are
designed to be "Wow, look at that guy drive!" sort of stuff. That's
not comparable - it depends on style. Two of the beta-team were/are
hotlap afficionados, and had a little battle at Spa a while back. One
guy was sideways through the Masta Kink at 170mph+, driving the wheels
of the car and smoking tyres into every corner. The other guy was
controlled, precise, smooth, almost SLOW looking. The laptimes were as
near as dammit identical. It's not the game engine, it's the inputs
you give it.

I'm not sure if Alison's site has any hotlap replays for download but
you might want to look out for any by Doug Arnao. I'm always amazed by
his laps, how utterly in control they look, even almost slow, but the
laptimes are awesome. Doug is a car guy and races for a living, so
perhaps his approach is different to those of us weaned on sims?
Perhaps that's the difference?

Cheers!
John

Someone who disagrees with you is not flaming you.

Cheers!
John

Is there a sim where anyone drives identically to the AI? Take ICR2 for eg. If you wanna
be slow, drive like the AI. The AI is basically a moron and comparing it the the ever
changing and inconsistant (even in the case of the most consistant drivers) human drivers
is just nonsense. We are a LONG LONG way away from AI that is anything like true human
behaviour. The AI is like a train on a track that makes the odd random error. Again, no
comparison to human behaviour at all.
   As far as consistancy goes, simmers need to up their game as we take yet another
glorious step toward the true sim and away from arcade! Also, here's a quote from Alison
from the Papy cup

 "Monaco is a hell of a place to hold a motor race, expecially when the field is filled
out with NASCAR drivers in Formula 1 cars!"

--
 Byron Forbes
 Captain of Team Lightning Bolt

 http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS

    and

 http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Not according to what I just read in my strategy guide for GPL.  See
"Winning Isn't Everything.  Yeah Right".  

I quote:  "In 'Grand Prix Legends', the AI drivers act like, well, human
beings.  Sometimes they make mistakes.  Sometimes they're on top of their
game.  Sometimes they make Herculean efforts only to have their cars let
them down.  Some days they're uncatchable.  Other days they should have
stayed in bed.  And that's just when they're racing the tracks and each
other.  When a computer-driven car comes up behind you and you try to
prevent it from passing you, the AI car won't simply bull its way past;
it will tuck in behind you for a lap or more if necessary, analyzing the
way you drive.  When the AI determines where on the track you're the
slowest, that's where your opponent will make his move."

I'd like to add that based on footage that I've seen in various
documentaries from the era (including the recent airing of "9 Day's in
Summer") my observation is that the AI in GPL is much closer to "real
life" drivers of the time than the "hotlappers" of today.

Devon

I've been saying this for years. I'm not here to tell the people that if
they like something not to like it. But to understand your view and my view
as more of a commoners view. This is why GPL won't be played as much as it
should. Nascar 2 sold well but there are a lot of people that bought it and
shelved it way to early.

I believe your logic is so correct that it can not be argued sanely. I
always watched replays as part of my handling review. The one that is by far
the best for realism is Nascar in arcade with heavily modified ai settings.
This was poetry. You could be mistaken easily for an Ai driver lap after
lap. No AA500 there. I also like Toca, but the bumping wasn't realistic
watching replays, but in all actuality really lends itself better that it is
the way it is. Otherwise you would have blow out races and races where only
a few would finish in. Toca in a GP enviroment is absolutley excellent since
they do things to keep the race close unlike all other GP racers I've tried.

Without some type of added control from GPL I simply will not be able to get
my local gang into this game. The learning curve can not be much higher than
it is to jump into their own auto and drive it fast down the road. They will
become frustrated and ask for N2, Toca, MTM or some other genre.

I do like the net options they threw in here that I wish N2 had.

I'm lucky to be blessed with cable modems. I'm setting up my gang with USB
sound (another problem with dos N2) so we can have several sound sources
going at once. There is a program called Honeynet which allows a group of 8
to talk live to one another with a headset across the net while they are
playing their favorite game (works great with CTF Quake). This is only
possible with usb sound unless you don't want game sounds. This is just a
tech. message to some out there that might want to take advantage of this
awesome feature. Having N2 using GPL's netwokring abilities this would be
the shi!.

But I agree if the replays show the absolute pro's driving insanely on the
track then there has to be someting wrong. I personally have a feeling that
the players who do love it enjoy the challange and find the groove the game
does create even though it isn't really realistic fun to drive even though
it's quite dangerous.

BH

Bravo, Devon!
You are extremely observant and 100% accurate in your summation.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------

R:

Thus brings up my old second point. Do you make a game only a few can drive?
Or a game where the majority can drive like only a few can? I think the
people (the people) want the second, they want to believe they are a world
class driver and can compete on a world class level (there still is a
challange believe me). My ultimate point with this is to have a TOGGLE where
you can have it both ways. I would bet the farm the majority of people who
would buy the game IF IT WERE KNOWN would choose the easier and safer
driving model. N2 arcade was setup wrong and not really mentioned. But
everyone I shown that wasn't a complete die hard simmer liked it much better
and those people out numbered the simmer over 10 to 1.

Obviously this isn't Papy's goal but this game is getting hyped that a
commoner would assume it's fantastic, but many would get it and find it
undriveable. The masses is looking for a model like that sony psx racing
game, which I've heard by dedicated sim racers is excellent and more
controllable.

BH