rec.autos.simulators

by **Chri** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

I just found out that N3 will NOT use the GPL
physics engine as everyone previously thought.
My first reaction was to be sick. Then I got
to thinking about it. I was really only
looking forward to N3 based on the GPL engine
because I knew somebody would make the tracks
interchangable between N3 and GPL, i.e. NASCAR
stockers at all the cool 1967 tracks that are
in GPL. My interest in N3 doesn't
go any further than that. Driving in circles
bores me to tears. I suspect that I would
have had fun with a GPL based N3 for a few
weeks and then fallen back into my pattern
of driving GPL.

Now, my only concern is this: What happens
to the GPL engine??? I certainly hope it
doesn't get dumped. I'll be perfectly happy
if somebody at Papy would confirm that the
GPL engine will be used down the line. If
they would confine the GPL engine to GPL,
CART3 (I'm hoping, but I haven't heard
anything at all that this title is even in
development) and GPL2 (Again, I'm hoping,
but given GPL sales, I'm not holding my
breath) I'll be happy. NASCAR is just a
passing interest for me, like SCGT and
Viper are. They're diverting now and again,
but GPL is where it's at. I strongly suspect
that N3, even based on GPL, would have been,
for me, just another interesting diversion
(except for the track swaping, that is).

What will be a crying shame is if the GPL
engine gets permanently dumped for a less
realistic, easier engine because of the dumb-
redneck-NASCAR-watching-football-loving-all-
I-want-to-do-is-drive-in-circles-for-hours-and-win-
by-three-laps-and-watch-cool-crashes-and-drink-
beer-and-eat-hotdogs mentality. Things should not
be easy. What ever happened to satisfaction
stemming from a job well done? I weep because of the
attitude that has emerged in our society in which
everyone wants to have everything and pay nothing for
it. To win instantly and not have to work for it.
To be the best in a competition where all the other
players are not as good as you. To take the easy route
because it means more money sooner. *THAT* is what
truley makes me sick about the change in the physics
engine for N3. Because it indicates a trend for
the future from Papy (puppet of Sierra) in which
I will no longer be able to enjoy the realism that
makes GPL truly enjoyable and satisfying to me.

Just my opinions. They could be wrong, but, then
again, so could yours.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

-- Robert Frost

-----------------------------
-Chris- | Two wheels are better |
|Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R|
-----------------------------

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **Michael Barlo** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

> I just found out that N3 will NOT use the GPL
> physics engine as everyone previously thought.
> My first reaction was to be sick. Then I got
> to thinking about it. I was really only
> looking forward to N3 based on the GPL engine
> because I knew somebody would make the tracks
> interchangable between N3 and GPL, i.e. NASCAR
> stockers at all the cool 1967 tracks that are
> in GPL. My interest in N3 doesn't
> go any further than that. Driving in circles
> bores me to tears. I suspect that I would
> have had fun with a GPL based N3 for a few
> weeks and then fallen back into my pattern
> of driving GPL.

That's exactly what I would be doing too! But, Being an F3 ***,
and hoping like anything, N3 comes with some of the lesser powered
cars. I'd probably run the lesser powered cars on the GPL tracks ;-)

Careful now, That statement describes 99% of the "TEN" drivers. <g>

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
Member of R.O.R. 1999
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~marknjess/ror.html
=========================================
Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

mikeba.vcf
< 1K Download

by **Ken Bear** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

Well, I for one don't care for your little diatribe on NASCAR fan's, you'd
be shocked to know a lot of us are into the RACING aspect of it, don't throw
chicken bones at the track, aren't drunk out of our mind, have college
educations, and find on-track passing somewhat more interesting than driving
around a road course and putting 3 laps ahead of the field because everyone
else broke down and passing only in the pits of today's Formula 1 (no
flames, I like and watch it but it usually IS boring). Just because YOU
don't like it doesn't mean you need to look down on those who do - this
open-wheel, anti-oval elitism get's real old, real quick.

And, since you didn't really WANT a NASCAR sim, other than one based on the
GPL engine, you aren't the target audience. You already HAVE GPL, so what
they do with their NASCAR sim shouldn't concern you terribly.

I'll reserve judgement on the N2000 engine depending on how well it
simulates NASCAR, and how much they improve the AI and such. It's entirely
possible that what they come up with will be better suited to NASCAR than
shoe-horning the GPL engine (that doesn't have to deal with aerodynamics and
the like that is quite significant in NASCAR or modern open-wheel racing) -
or it could suck, we won't really know until it's out.

--
Ken's Sig 2.01

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from
some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

>I just found out that N3 will NOT use the GPL
>physics engine as everyone previously thought.
>My first reaction was to be sick. Then I got
>to thinking about it. I was really only
>looking forward to N3 based on the GPL engine
>because I knew somebody would make the tracks
>interchangable between N3 and GPL, i.e. NASCAR
>stockers at all the cool 1967 tracks that are
>in GPL. My interest in N3 doesn't
>go any further than that. Driving in circles
>bores me to tears. I suspect that I would
>have had fun with a GPL based N3 for a few
>weeks and then fallen back into my pattern
>of driving GPL.

>Now, my only concern is this: What happens
>to the GPL engine??? I certainly hope it
>doesn't get dumped. I'll be perfectly happy
>if somebody at Papy would confirm that the
>GPL engine will be used down the line. If
>they would confine the GPL engine to GPL,
>CART3 (I'm hoping, but I haven't heard
>anything at all that this title is even in
>development) and GPL2 (Again, I'm hoping,
>but given GPL sales, I'm not holding my
>breath) I'll be happy. NASCAR is just a
>passing interest for me, like SCGT and
>Viper are. They're diverting now and again,
>but GPL is where it's at. I strongly suspect
>that N3, even based on GPL, would have been,
>for me, just another interesting diversion
>(except for the track swaping, that is).

>What will be a crying shame is if the GPL
>engine gets permanently dumped for a less
>realistic, easier engine because of the dumb-
>redneck-NASCAR-watching-football-loving-all-
>I-want-to-do-is-drive-in-circles-for-hours-and-win-
>by-three-laps-and-watch-cool-crashes-and-drink-
>beer-and-eat-hotdogs mentality. Things should not
>be easy. What ever happened to satisfaction
>stemming from a job well done? I weep because of the
>attitude that has emerged in our society in which
>everyone wants to have everything and pay nothing for
>it. To win instantly and not have to work for it.
>To be the best in a competition where all the other
>players are not as good as you. To take the easy route
>because it means more money sooner. *THAT* is what
>truley makes me sick about the change in the physics
>engine for N3. Because it indicates a trend for
>the future from Papy (puppet of Sierra) in which
>I will no longer be able to enjoy the realism that
>makes GPL truly enjoyable and satisfying to me.

>Just my opinions. They could be wrong, but, then
>again, so could yours.

>"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
>I took the one less traveled by,
>And that has made all the difference."

> -- Robert Frost

> -----------------------------
>-Chris- | Two wheels are better |
> |Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R|
> -----------------------------

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
>---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **David L. Co** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

> I'll reserve judgement on the N2000 engine depending on how well it
> simulates NASCAR, and how much they improve the AI and such. It's entirely
> possible that what they come up with will be better suited to NASCAR than
> shoe-horning the GPL engine (that doesn't have to deal with aerodynamics and
> the like that is quite significant in NASCAR or modern open-wheel racing) -
> or it could suck, we won't really know until it's out.

Based on the interview I listened to with David Kaemmer, I got the
impression that N3 was the ultimate goal for that physics engine and that
they chose '67 GP cars to show it off.

David L. Cook

by **UnserFan** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

N3 not using the GPL physics engine? Not what I heard recently! I've heard
that NASCAR Racing 3 as it is commonly called will be as was originally
planned, like is shown in the N3 demo movie, (www.papy.com) but it is being
delayed heavily as those bastards at Sierra would rather release one to two
more NASCAR sims based on the N2 physics engine, because they know that they
have no other competition (where the hell does EA Sports think it's going with
NASCAR Road Racing? I thought that 3 games with the Andretti Racing physics
engine was enough!).

Dan Belcher
Team Racing Unlimited

by **Ken Bear** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

It was always mentioned as the engine for future stuff, mainly N3/2000.
What could've happened was somewhere along the line, to make GPL what it is,
they pushed the engine too far into simulating those particular cars, and in
now trying to adapt it to other things they ran into things they just didn't
expect. It *could* well be more difficult to remove this stuff from the GPL
code and get it to simulate something different (N2000) than to try to add
some lessons learned from GPL to the N99 engine. I'm just saying that there
IS a possibility that the new engine may feel as right for the stockers as
GPL does for what it's simulating, where a modified GPL may just not work
and *feel* right. Maybe Papy is doing this for a GOOD reason, to provide
the best feeling NASCAR sim in a reasonable time.

Or the suits at Sierra are screwing us over to get $$, I won't argue that
this isn't a definite possibility - just look at what they did with the
Football Pro series and this year's release. That's why I'm saying I'll
reserve judgement for the actual release.
--
Ken's Sig 2.01

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from
some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

>> I'll reserve judgement on the N2000 engine depending on how well it
>> simulates NASCAR, and how much they improve the AI and such. It's
entirely
>> possible that what they come up with will be better suited to NASCAR than
>> shoe-horning the GPL engine (that doesn't have to deal with aerodynamics
and
>> the like that is quite significant in NASCAR or modern open-wheel
racing) -
>> or it could suck, we won't really know until it's out.

>Based on the interview I listened to with David Kaemmer, I got the
>impression that N3 was the ultimate goal for that physics engine and that
>they chose '67 GP cars to show it off.

>David L. Cook

by **Chri** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

In my own defense, and not intending to be sarcastic, notice
in the following section from my original post what I refer
to:

I'm simply refering to a mentality and an attitude,
not to NASCAR fans specifically. Unfortunately, this
attitude manifests itself pre***ly in the stereo-
typical NASCAR fan. I'll grant you that stereotypes
are unfair and prejudicial, but the fact remains that
this type of attitude is present in a large portion of
NASCAR fans. Every stereotype is has its foundation
in truth.

My job gives me occasion to travel to some of the less
populated, small town areas where NASCAR is very popular.
Almost every one of the fans I've run across falls more
or less into this stereotype. I witnessed six guys in
a lunch room talk about how boring Talladega is but
that they would drive all the way from Pennsylvania
to the race just to see "The Big Wreck". One of these
same gentlemen expressed frustration at the lack of
passing at some of the more recent NASCAR races, and
that he would gladly "sacrifice" the driver he was
rooting for to a wreck if it would spice up the show.
He owns season tickets to Bristol and told me that he
goes mainly to watch the wrecks.

Among the casual NASCAR fans of my own age who own
computers, all expressed interest in N2 and all have
tried it at one time or another. They all, however,
lose interest if they don't win immediatly. They aren't
willing to put the slightest bit of effort into learning
how to "drive" the game, and degenerate into driving
backwards withing a half an hour.

Agreed. I'm *NOT* the target audience for N3, but my greatest
fear is that Papy (or Sierra in all likelihood) will not
base any future sims on a phenominal physics engine like
the GPL engine simply for the fact that the people like I
mentioned above *ARE* the target audience. These are the
very people who show up in droves to buy re-badged titles
like N1999 and low quality titles like NASCAR Revolution.
What I don't understand is why both of us can't be satisfied
at the same time. After all, N2 has a "sim" mode and an
"arcade" mode. Why not do the same thing again? Both of
our groups could then be happy.

-Chris-

---Two wheels are better
---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **Scott B. Huste** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

> But, Being an F3 ***,
> and hoping like anything, N3 comes with some of the lesser powered
> cars. I'd probably run the lesser powered cars on the GPL tracks ;-)

You big woose!!! ROFLMAO

Actually.. that may describe a very large portion of Sierra's target market
for NASCAR sims.

Scott
PA-Scott
G.T.S. Racing - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
--
Scott B. Husted
PA-Scott on TEN
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~sbhusted
ICQ# 4395450

by **Chri** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

This certainly sounds like a reasonable explanation and I rather
expect that it holds more truth than any other speculations I've
read in the last couple of days... Including my own. <VBG>

How does the side of you that likes "Monty Python" co-exist
peacefully with the side of you that likes NASCAR? I'd think
that the two sides were mutually exclusive. 8^)
I know that *MY* "Monty Python" side tries to squish the
small part of me that lands on NASCAR when channel surfing.

-Chris-

---Two wheels are better
---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **Michael Barlo** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

> x-no-archive: yes

> >I just found out that N3 will NOT use the GPL
> >physics engine as everyone previously thought.

> <snip>

> The last I heard - which was some time ago, granted - was that Nascar
> 3 _was_ going to be using the GPL engine. The hype around Nascar 3 has
> been created because everybody is looking forward to seeing this in
> action. If this has been removed, I expect we will see quite a few
> tears around the place. ;)

> >Driving in circles
> >bores me to tears. I suspect that I would
> >have had fun with a GPL based N3 for a few
> >weeks and then fallen back into my pattern
> >of driving GPL.

> Nascar racing is _not_ about driving in circles. Actually, it is. But
> only technically. Most of the tracks in Nascar racing are oval, true,
> but they're by no means all the same, and none of them around _round_
> like most people think. Some races (the Glen, for example) take place
> of proper tracks. Other races are on steep banked ovals, like
> Tallegeda. And some, like Loudon, aren't oval at all. Two straights
> and two corners may seem boring from the outside, but I can't remember
> a simulator quite as ***ive as [not inc. GPL] Nasca Racing 1 and 2.

> Nascar 3 with the GPL engine would have been astonishing and I
> certainly do hope that they continue, as promised. Imagine the
> spectacular bumper-to-bumper racing, mixed in with better graphics
> than we saw in GPL, plus cars leaving the track for the skies in the
> most breathtaking accidents on record.

> Oh yes... they should most definately stick with the GPL engine!

> Spirewolf

You get everything out of GPL and road courses as you described about
the ovals. What you don't get out of ovals that you do out of road
courses is the technical know how. after all, what effort and/or
knowledge does it take to drive in circles? hehe

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
Member of R.O.R. 1999
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~marknjess/ror.html
=========================================
Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

mikeba.vcf
< 1K Download

by **Jan Koh** » Mon, 17 May 1999 04:00:00

>> >What will be a crying shame is if the GPL
>> >engine gets permanently dumped for a less
>> >realistic, easier engine because of the dumb-
>> >redneck-NASCAR-watching-football-loving-all-
>> >I-want-to-do-is-drive-in-circles-for-hours-and-win-
>> >by-three-laps-and-watch-cool-crashes-and-drink-
>> >beer-and-eat-hotdogs mentality.
>My job gives me occasion to travel to some of the less
>populated, small town areas where NASCAR is very popular.
>Almost every one of the fans I've run across falls more
>or less into this stereotype. I witnessed six guys in
>a lunch room talk about how boring Talladega is but
>that they would drive all the way from Pennsylvania
>to the race just to see "The Big Wreck". One of these
>same gentlemen expressed frustration at the lack of
>passing at some of the more recent NASCAR races, and
>that he would gladly "sacrifice" the driver he was
>rooting for to a wreck if it would spice up the show.
>He owns season tickets to Bristol and told me that he
>goes mainly to watch the wrecks.

Eh....WHAT? Where do you go to meet these people? I
know a ton of NASCAR fans, and I've yet to know any that have
this mentality. I'm sorry, but if you're going to protray a stereotype,
try and find a realistic one. This is ludicrous.

Mmmmmhmmmm...yeah, and what were these same people
doing with GPL? Driving backwards in 15 minutes?

??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team**
Computer Systems Programmer
USAF Air-Ground Operations School
Hurlburt Field, FL

Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/
The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

by **Ken Bear** » Tue, 18 May 1999 04:00:00

Well, growing up and living here in C***te you can't help but to get into
NASCAR. C***te has most of the teams in the immediate area, and it gets
tons of press coverage here. While the segment of fans you talk about
certainly exists, there are a lot of Lexus's, BMW's and the like seen
leaving the parking lots after the races here - not as many as Ford F150's,
etc but the demographic that goes to the races is upper middle class and
college educated. I'd imagine the same if you grew up in Indianapolis, it'd
be hard not to be into IndyCars - and I assure you from folks I've known
that have been to the Indy 500 that just as many of those fans are rednecks
getting drunk wanting to see wrecks ;-)

Don't get me wrong, I watch *ALL* motorsports, just that being NASCAR bred I
tend to like it the best - and still find it more often than not to be the
most competitive. I don't get drag racing, other than that anything with
wheels is fair game :-) I know several people around here who are the same,
and just as nuts about Python.

--
Ken's Sig 2.01

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from
some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

>This certainly sounds like a reasonable explanation and I rather
>expect that it holds more truth than any other speculations I've
>read in the last couple of days... Including my own. <VBG>

>> Or the suits at Sierra are screwing us over to get $$, I
>> won't argue that this isn't a definite possibility - just
>> look at what they did with the Football Pro series and
>> this year's release. That's why I'm saying I'll reserve
>> judgement for the actual release.
>> --

>How does the side of you that likes "Monty Python" co-exist
>peacefully with the side of you that likes NASCAR? I'd think
>that the two sides were mutually exclusive. 8^)
>I know that *MY* "Monty Python" side tries to squish the
>small part of me that lands on NASCAR when channel surfing.

>-Chris-

>---Two wheels are better
>---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **Chri** » Tue, 18 May 1999 04:00:00

I'm sorry if you find this ludicrous, but these are real
people that I've met. I did not make them up. Unfortunately,
their attitude represents about 60-70% of the NASCAR fans that
I've met personally. Maybe it's the part of the country,
maybe it's because it's extremely rural. I don't know. I
do realize that there are a whole lot of NASCAR fans who
don't even remotely match this stereotype, but I've not
run across many of them.

These people don't have any interest in GPL, but if they
had the chance to drive it, that would probably be an
accurate discription.

-Chris-

---Two wheels are better
---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

by **Marc Collin** » Tue, 18 May 1999 04:00:00

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rec.autos.simulators

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...

N3 and GPL Physics...