rec.autos.simulators

  I am thinking about "non-force-feedback" wheels, simply because I have
begun to wonder as of late if force feedback might actually be hurting my
racing experience.   Non-force-feedback wheels are also cheaper (although
many don't have the quality of pedals of my Momo).

  So my question is:  do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not
have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience of real
cars, much less racing cars)?  Do you think it helps or hurts your driving?
In a real car do the forces on the car really come through the wheel
(assuming it is a modern power steering car?).

  I play mostly rally racing, dirt track racing, and occasionally NASCAR
type games.

If we're talking the original, red MOMO, this should be extremely easy to
do:

Undo the 6 hex screws that hold the brushed metal plate on the face of the
wheel.

*** Warning: the wheel is now no longer held on to the base, so don't pull
on it or allow the base to drop away. ***

Remove the plate, undo the lefthand connector and remove the 3? (not sure)
screws holding the switch/led PCB in place. Take out the PCB, replace the
microswitch with a similar item from any electronic parts store (requires
basic rework equipment, i.e. a soldering iron/lead and some desoldering
braid), re-assemble and Bob is your proverbial uncle.

Buying another wheel to replace a Logitech MOMO... tssk!! ;-)

TSSK!!! ;-)

Depends on one's game of choice and one's willingness to fiddle with
settings to get a good feel for the virtual vehicle. The only games to
acchieve approximate realism are GPL/NR2003, F12002/F1C, RC2001, Rally
Trophy and LFS, IMO. Exact realism is questionable because the limited
amount of lock-to-lock travel of the PC wheel vs. its real life counterpart
tends to tilt either the forces or the weighing of the steering too much, so
I think it's best to view FF as a tool to immersion/consistency/fun rather
than an exact simulation (it's also pretty individual).

It helps my consistency and enjoyment, but non-FF is definately faster once
one is used to it.

Yes, even with power steering suspension forces are reacted through the
wheel. There is no car where you can drive along, set an amount of lock, let
go of the wheel and continue on the same radius. Even non-FF wheels
"simulate" self aligning torque.

Non-FF is a disadvantage when running the latest NASCAR games as instead of
the geometry ensuring that the wheel is "naturally" slightly turned to the
right while going straight, non-FF users have to hold the wheel in that
position while its centering spring pushes it back.

Jan.
=---

<snip>

I'd agree, Jan.

Even a decent wheel like a Momo feels pretty unlike a steering mechanism of
a car but it does provide a representation and a replacement for the
physical inputs a driver feels. Whether this improves the experience is
down to preference. As I have stated before representing the feeling
through the graphics works best for me.

The opposite for me, FF impacts on consistency as the car feels like it is
driving itself. Once used to FF the inout can be used to good effect. I am
not convinced it is necessarily any more realistic but within the limits of
racing sims is a fair input to use.

True, but in reality most non racers greatest experience of a sliding car
is probably on slippery surfaces like snow, ice and gravel where the
steering feedback is less defined. I did some road rallying in my distant
past in some hard winters and on some dodgy farm tracks ("whites" for the
initiated in the UK). In such circumstances winding on opposite lock was
both intuitive and with very little resistance (due to the surface and the
fact that the car is rotating)

With FF the steering either assists your opposite locking to overcome the
mechanism or you have push the wheel against the mechanism (with an
accompanying whine). Either way it never feels quite right.

Clearly comparing my experience in Avengers and Asconas on ice and snow
with a race car on dry tarmac is flawed to say the least, but having slid
(and spun) a few more *** vehicles including a single seater on a track
since I would stand by my view that the steering does not feel like an FF
wheel.

As Jan says, treat it like a tool to overcome the physical limitations of
current sim racing rather than an accurate representation of the feel of
driving a car.

Cheers
Tony

Watch 5 minutes of any race(F1, Nascar, FIA Rally), and you'll see that
forces are transmitted through the wheel.  More than anything, the FF we get
through our wheels isnt as strong as in real life.

"How To Fix MoMo Racing's paddle switches for good":

http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=61403

Lots of screws alright... ;)

   I was using it as a handbrake.  It probably wasn't built for that kind of
usage.  Especially since I used it as a handbrake in every single game.  I
checked out the gear shifter while I was in there, and it is built very
sturdy, it would probably withstand it alot better.   I usually drive
automatic in all my games (except sometimes Formula 1 type games), but it is
a useful button to have to navigate through menus.

    They should start making dedicated hanbrakes for wheels.  Maybe
something like the Act Labs gearshifter- a stand-alone unit.   Or something
built onto the wheel.  They need something that you can pull on and hold
down without it getting too stressed out.

   But racing cars usually have some kind of power steering.  Wouldn't that
tend to damp forces acting on the wheel?  Could you feel the differences in
tire grip in those situations?

  I know in NASCAR (from some reading I have done) the wheels have some kind
of speed sensitive power steering- which is one thing I do not like about
the Papyrus NASCAR sims, the wheel feels like it has none, and you can
develope some very "jerky" forces on the wheel (and with the FF turned up,
they can be very powerful, you really have to fight the wheel).  I preffer
the feel of NASCAR HEAT or NASCAR Thunder.  You can feel a loss of grip, but
it is more subtle.  Also, adjusting the speed sensitivity of the steering
directly affects the force feedback in those games (increasing or decreasing
the force damping).

  As I said, I have very little real-world driving experience to compare it
to, much less real-world racing experience.

Charlie

They get them hands OFF of the wheel less they acquire a case of "Racers
Wrist".

-Larry

P.S.  The "doo" was a typo, but it ironicly fit so well I left it alone :)

In NR2003, I tend to run FF at ~50-60% for the reasons you mentioned.  It
provides pretty good front tire feedback without the crazy forces.  There's
still one thing I could do without, and that's weight transfer and rear tire
related forces.  IMHO, that's where the wackier forces come from.  Nothing
bothers me more than correcting for oversteer and having the wheel jerk as
the rear tires grip and the chassis rolls over.  Frequently it
actually -prevents- me from saving it if I've held the countersteer a bit
too long.  If ya ask me, get rid of those extra FF inputs and NR2003 and F1C
would be very good.  They can be mitigated, but I'm hoping GTR will allow me
to do away with them altogether.

Alan

Your mileage might vary, but I'd rather spend a couple of extra bucks
on a well-engineered non-ff wheel than on an ff version (not saying
the momo isn't well-engineered, but I've never gotten the hang of FF
in racing sims no matter what settings I've tried).

Cheers,

uwe

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I think it helps for the immersion into the game when its set reasonably
well

Since I started with a FF setup, I find the opposite to be true.  I keep
looking for the small nuances to let me know when the car is rolling over
etc... that you do not get without FF.

IF you changed even non-FF wheels I'm pretty sure you would be slower until
you got used to the different wheel.

Personally - when you bang an inside wheel off a curb, or things like that,
or lock a wheel, with a properly set FF, it does a decent job of replicating
that.  For me, even with the nicely dampened high performance wheels, it's
more like driving a Mustang GT with it's numb powersteering.  IRL i drive a
European car, and it's far from numb and FF is closer to that.  But it ain't
fully realistic.