rec.autos.simulators

CART:PR Patch Results

Marc Collin

CART:PR Patch Results

by Marc Collin » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

STEERING: Fixed...well, almost

GRAPHICS: Good Improvement....keep tweaking.

AI: There seems to be some "I" in the AI, but it is still 80% "A"

OTHER STUFF: Still some unbelievable bugs and inconsistencies.

DETAILS AND MY SET-UP:

K6-233, 32MB SDRAM, Matrox Mystique 170 4MB, T3 Wheel

Steering:

The steering is vastly improved by the patch, but it takes quite a bit of
fiddling to get it set-up right.  I use 100% non-linear and 0% speed
sensitive with a 10% null zone.  Using 0% non-linear and 100% speed
sensitive seems to work well on the ovals (until you need to manoeuvre
quickly during a spin or an accident), but is impossible on the road
courses.

There are now lots of adjustments and controls--no one could ask for more.
The problem is, the steering still sucks on road courses, in my opinion.
Even in the pits, I have difficulty driving a simple straight line at low
speeds.  The car tends to wander on the road courses quite dramatically.  I
thought that it may be a result of slow frame rate (slow polling) which
certainly can mess up other sims, so I experimented a bit by turning off all
graphics options.  The same problem continued.

The problem is, I believe, a result of the GPS/"world environment" system
that CART:PR uses...or at least it mimics a GPS problem.  On a GPS
navigator, one constantly sees the cursor (you) mistracking off the "road"
you are on because the cursor can only move at certain angles (360 degrees
divided by how ever many increments they programmed in).  Inevitably, it is
not precise enough to match the mapped data.  That's exactly what is
happening to me in CART:PR.  No matter how smooth and wonderfully I set-up
the steering, the car itself seems to be unable to turn in its world less
than a fairly large notch.  In other words, with ICR2 and N2 (whatever their
other merits and problems) I get liquid smooth steering because there
appears to be an infinite (it isn't really) number of transition steps in
the cars actual turning actions.  I would love for someone to estimate (or
for MS/TRI to tell us) what the minimum turning angle is for a CART:PR car.
I think it is about 2-3 degrees on the compass--which is several orders of
magnitude larger than it should be.  However, to reduce the size (and
increase the precision...that's a word for you) would require, I believe an
exponential increase in computer processing capability.

Unfortunately, if this issue is not addressed (in my suggested way or some
other solution if I am out to lunch), all the steering control adjustments
in the world won't help.

Lastly, the road courses are difficult because they are, despite the
supposed GPS, too narrow.  Perhaps the courses are OK, but the cars are too
wide.  There is room for three a*** driving (with a decent physical
margin of safety) at Michigan and on much of Laguna Seca, though there it
would be unlikely to see three a***.  Check out the cardboard insert with
the keyboard shortcuts to see the scale of the tracks vs. the cars if you
don't believe me.  Why is it when I am on CART:PR Laguna, it feels and
drives like there is barely room for two cars a***.  This situations
compounds the wandering problem to make the road courses undriveable in
comparison to the ovals.

Graphics:

I do not have a 3dfx card...yet!  The framerate improvements in the patch
now make the game playable on my lowly K6-233.  I am not happy with mid-***
frame rates, but I must admit that CART:PR runs better at low frame rates
than any other driving sim I have used (on various machines).  Barely
tolerable comes to  mind, so if more tweaking is possible, then it should be
acceptable before long.  I am more nervous when I read wildly fluctuating
frame rates from users with the same 3D cards and very similar set-ups.  Who
knows...?

AI: The AI was completely unacceptable and inexcusable in a "final" release
before the patch.  Post-patch things are looking up, but this is the area
that still needs the most improvement.  The patch as it stands now is still
far from "final release" material, though it would make a good "interim
release."  It would be worth the 4MB download (and idiot-proof installation)
even for those who are not that serious about the game and who will need to
download a final patch in the future.

Pit AI is basically non-existent.  The cars leave the pits and enter the
tracks at ridiculously acute angles that cause chaos for all concerned.

The AI attempts to ram its way through accidents as it completely ignores
the yellow flags.

The AI brakes way too much and way too early on ovals...causing more chaos
on the track.

The AI on road courses, which I have barely used since they are so
undriveable (read: unpleasant to drive), is much more difficult to judge.  I
know that in practice mode on ICR2 and N2, I have yet to be rammed from the
rear by an AI car (road courses).  I have yet to make it more than 2 laps in
a CART:PR road course without being rammed from the rear by an AI car.  This
may be because I am driving somewhat slower because my car constantly
wanders off "its track" and the track.

The AI generally acts and looks very artificial.  Jerky, exaggerated
movements that no real race driver would make prevent a CART:PR human user
from attempting to gain skills by driving properly.  The only way to succeed
in the game is to learn how to avoid the AI--which inevitably has you doing
things that you wouldn't otherwise choose to do.  There is also a mismatch
between the speed of the AI cars and you.  I think that your car should
probably be slowed down, but....?

Other Stuff:

The flying starts careening through the pace car have got to go.  Thanks for
letting me drive out of the pits by myself...I can start the car from a stop
as well, thanks.  The rev limiter kicking in at the appropriate speed is a
sensible approach to that annoyance from the pre-patch version.  I'd also
like not to be able to drive through other cars in the pits.

The brown tracks are....well, brown and stupid.  The brightness control for
objects works very well, and the next version should, I guess, have a track
brightness control also.  It is in the .INI file, but does nothing on my
set-up when I adjust it.

The sounds, particularly of the engine and shifting, are first rate.  Vastly
superior to any other sim. out there.

The damage model needs some work.  Slamming head-on into an oncoming AI car
at Michigan (we're both doing 300 km/h) and driving away while barely
grazing the car in front of me resulting in the nose cone flying off just
don't work well together.

Rolling backwards while being stopped is a bit disconcerting.

Being forced into autopilot mode and attempting to drag me through the pit
wall and failing and then dragging me all the way around the track and then
into the pits on autopilot because I grazed the opening edge of the pits
while coming around a corner at top speed is not a good thing.

No track yellows and AI ignoring the local yellows is beyond my
comprehension in a sim. that has such successful attention to detail in so
many other areas.

Number 1 for me: I honestly could not believe that this thing the car does
spinning its wheels in neutral and the chirping tires while driving along
slowly under minimal power was not addressed by the patch.  In everyone's
haste to *** about the frame rates and the AI did this somehow get
overlooked as a one the program's major problems?  It is incomprehensible to
me that it remains unchanged.  Someone please tell me that this is a
recognised problem and it will get fixed!!

Well, that's my 2 cents worth.

OVERALL:

Before Patch "C -"
After Patch "B"

Marc.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
****************************************************************************

Randy BO

CART:PR Patch Results

by Randy BO » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

<< The problem is, the steering still sucks on road courses, in my opinion.
Even in the pits, I have difficulty driving a simple straight line at low
speeds.  The car tends to wander on the road courses quite dramatically.  >>

I used to have this problem before the patch and don't anymore.   If you're
using a wheel, you may well need to do some serious fiddling with several
options:

Speed-sensitive Steering, Linear Steering, Null zone and your garage maximum
lock (I forget what its called -- steering ratio?).  It took quite a bit of
tweaking and right clicking on options to read their help pop-ups several times
before I found what I wanted.  If you're having the wandering at very low
speeds, its unlikely that speed-sensitive steering is your problem.  It sounds
more like you need to make your steering more linear so it doesn't ignore small
inputs.  And of course, drop your null zone to 0 and see what happens.
Finally, the steering ratio in the garage might be off, though I would think
that would just make you more twitchy in turns.

supposed GPS, too narrow.  Perhaps the courses are OK, but the cars are too
wide.  >>

They are narrow, but I think they are realistically narrow.  I was struck by
how narrow Laguna Seca was in real life when I drove a Skip Barber car around
it, and my car was smaller than an Indy Car!

the yellow flags.>>

What yellow flags? :)

the rear by an AI car (road courses).  I have yet to make it more than 2 laps
in a CART:PR road course without being rammed from the rear by an AI car.  

Odd.  I haven't seen this since patching the thing.  The AI cars now seem more
concernedwith avoiding my car than they do with racing!

I hope I don't get MS upset with me for saying this, but I have the latest
build (one beyond the one you have) and the car doesn't move in neutral, at
least in the few spots that I tried it.   I THINK they fixed it.

Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/

Marc Collin

CART:PR Patch Results

by Marc Collin » Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Thanks for the feedback--my reply is interspersed below.


I have tweaked everything three times over using just about every
combination of settings.  I really believe that the car is responding well
to steering input but the limitations of the game engine are getting in the
way.  You must be familiar with ICR2 and N2--does your steering in CART:PR
feel and act anything like those two?  If so, let me (us) know your exact
settings--I'll try them!

OK, explain the photo that we all got with our games (the cardboard insert).
Look at the bottom-right corner of the Laguna photo and tell me how many
cars a*** you could fit there and whether the game simulates something
even half that wide.

I would presume you are joking but some here have said they cannot see any
yellow flags at all....so ??  I get yellow flags showing at many appropriate
times.  I have yet to see an AI car react in any way to the yellow flag and,
of course therefore, they are not full-track yellows.

That is absolutely true.  Their main strategy is to avoid...which
unfortunately also must be yours because of their jerky, exaggerated
movements.

Great!  What about the wheels spinning in neutral and the car not going
anywhere and the chirping at low speeds?

- Show quoted text -

Brian Heilan

CART:PR Patch Results

by Brian Heilan » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I had an opportunity to circumvent the Toronto track two years ago.  My
impressions of the track were that I could not believe that the drivers were
able to race side by side through the very skinny sections of track.
Television does not represent how narrow these tracks really are.  I think
that TRI has done a good job with the tracks except for Burke Lakefront in
Cleveland. The front straight and pit area is totally wrong.

Randy Magrud

CART:PR Patch Results

by Randy Magrud » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>  You must be familiar with ICR2 and N2--does your steering in CART:PR
>feel and act anything like those two?  If so, let me (us) know your exact
>settings--I'll try them!

No, but then I don't have 2 sims that steer alike.  ICR2 feels
different than N2 feels different than GP2 feels different from CPR.
I just have a devil of a time fiddling with all the sliders :)

That photo is a fisheye style photo.  Totally aside from CPR my eyes
popped out when I saw that.  When you drive into Laguna Seca, the main
entrance comes in right above turn 3 looking down at that hairpin.
That picture is NOT representative of actual proportioning.  Its more
like one of those stretch panorama jobbies.  I don't know how else to
explain it.  I've entered Laguna many times and that picture
misrepresents the dimensions of the track.

I do see the occasional yellow blink, but they are nothing more than
local yellows....I'm just being facetious.

The chirping is still there :(

Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Byron Forbe

CART:PR Patch Results

by Byron Forbe » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00


> I hope I don't get MS upset with me for saying this, but I have the latest
> build (one beyond the one you have) and the car doesn't move in neutral, at
> least in the few spots that I tried it.   I THINK they fixed it.

   In the demo (unpatched of course) I had this problem in the unacc
version but now that I have a 3D card it's gone???????????
Ian La

CART:PR Patch Results

by Ian La » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Add surfer's paradise to the list of tracks that are _totally_ wrong.

I know for a fact that real cart cars actually break for that first
chicane, and actually have to steer there way through it!

In CPR, I can barrel through there in top gear, no brakes, pointing
almost totally striaght ahead, and just clipping the apexs!!!!

Also the turn leading onto the straight is totally wrong too :((((

Also, the fact that there are walls where their should be grass really
annoys me. Sure it stops curb jumping, but shouldn't we, as drivers,
make that conscience decision not to jump the curbs.

I don't mind small inaccuracies in tracks, but these are inexcusable
in my opinion.

Ian Lake

Jim Getze

CART:PR Patch Results

by Jim Getze » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Hopefully, TRi will release the track editor soon. Then some kind souls can
correct any mistakes in the tracks.

Jim Getzen

Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ
http://members.home.net/getzen/


>>I had an opportunity to circumvent the Toronto track two years ago.  My
>>impressions of the track were that I could not believe that the drivers
were
>>able to race side by side through the very skinny sections of track.
>>Television does not represent how narrow these tracks really are.  I think
>>that TRI has done a good job with the tracks except for Burke Lakefront in
>>Cleveland. The front straight and pit area is totally wrong.

>Add surfer's paradise to the list of tracks that are _totally_ wrong.

>I know for a fact that real cart cars actually break for that first
>chicane, and actually have to steer there way through it!

>In CPR, I can barrel through there in top gear, no brakes, pointing
>almost totally striaght ahead, and just clipping the apexs!!!!

>Also the turn leading onto the straight is totally wrong too :((((

>Also, the fact that there are walls where their should be grass really
>annoys me. Sure it stops curb jumping, but shouldn't we, as drivers,
>make that conscience decision not to jump the curbs.

>I don't mind small inaccuracies in tracks, but these are inexcusable
>in my opinion.

>Ian Lake

Brian Heilan

CART:PR Patch Results

by Brian Heilan » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I doubt there will be a track editor of any use, if it is going to be a
usable utility that could fix these problems, then why didn't TRI use it
themselves.
You have to also realize that any track change or creation will have to have
AI settings to go along with it. So far the AI has been the biggest problem.

I was starting to have a positive outlook on CPR when I used the 1.0.89 beta
patch, but my opinion of 1.0.90 is back to the drawing board. the car went
from totally controllable to uncontrollable.  I can't understand??????????

Brian


>Hopefully, TRi will release the track editor soon. Then some kind souls can
>correct any mistakes in the tracks.

>Jim Getzen

>Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ
>http://members.home.net/getzen/


>>>I had an opportunity to circumvent the Toronto track two years ago.  My
>>>impressions of the track were that I could not believe that the drivers
>were
>>>able to race side by side through the very skinny sections of track.
>>>Television does not represent how narrow these tracks really are.  I
think
>>>that TRI has done a good job with the tracks except for Burke Lakefront
in
>>>Cleveland. The front straight and pit area is totally wrong.

>>Add surfer's paradise to the list of tracks that are _totally_ wrong.

>>I know for a fact that real cart cars actually break for that first
>>chicane, and actually have to steer there way through it!

>>In CPR, I can barrel through there in top gear, no brakes, pointing
>>almost totally striaght ahead, and just clipping the apexs!!!!

>>Also the turn leading onto the straight is totally wrong too :((((

>>Also, the fact that there are walls where their should be grass really
>>annoys me. Sure it stops curb jumping, but shouldn't we, as drivers,
>>make that conscience decision not to jump the curbs.

>>I don't mind small inaccuracies in tracks, but these are inexcusable
>>in my opinion.

>>Ian Lake

Jim Getze

CART:PR Patch Results

by Jim Getze » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

Uncontrollable? In my opinion, if you add some wing and mechanical grip to
your setups, and take it easy on the gas so you don't smoke your tires at
low speeds, the patch gives you a much more realistic driving experience
than version 1.00.

Jim Getzen

Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ
http://members.home.net/getzen/

Marc Collin

CART:PR Patch Results

by Marc Collin » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

I'd still like to know what your steering set-up is....

Well, the photos don't lie.  A fish-eye lens does not distort the relative
width of the pit lane versus the track nor does it lie about two cars
travelling side-by-side with plenty of room left over.  And besides, having
taken a lot more photos than the average person--I would say that the Laguna
shot is NOT a fisheye lens, anyway.  I would guess about 30mm...

Marc.



>>  You must be familiar with ICR2 and N2--does your steering in CART:PR
>>feel and act anything like those two?  If so, let me (us) know your exact
>>settings--I'll try them!

>No, but then I don't have 2 sims that steer alike.  ICR2 feels
>different than N2 feels different than GP2 feels different from CPR.
>I just have a devil of a time fiddling with all the sliders :)

>>OK, explain the photo that we all got with our games (the cardboard
insert).
>>Look at the bottom-right corner of the Laguna photo and tell me how many
>>cars a*** you could fit there and whether the game simulates something
>>even half that wide.

>That photo is a fisheye style photo.  Totally aside from CPR my eyes
>popped out when I saw that.  When you drive into Laguna Seca, the main
>entrance comes in right above turn 3 looking down at that hairpin.
>That picture is NOT representative of actual proportioning.  Its more
>like one of those stretch panorama jobbies.  I don't know how else to
>explain it.  I've entered Laguna many times and that picture
>misrepresents the dimensions of the track.

>>I would presume you are joking but some here have said they cannot see any
>>yellow flags at all....so ??  I get yellow flags showing at many
appropriate
>>times.  I have yet to see an AI car react in any way to the yellow flag
and,
>>of course therefore, they are not full-track yellows.

>I do see the occasional yellow blink, but they are nothing more than
>local yellows....I'm just being facetious.

>>Great!  What about the wheels spinning in neutral and the car not going
>>anywhere and the chirping at low speeds?

>The chirping is still there :(

>Randy
>Randy Magruder
>Contributing Reviewer
>Digital Sportspage
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Marc Collin

CART:PR Patch Results

by Marc Collin » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00

The track editor will be, from what I have understood MS and TRI to say,
basically the same one they used to design the tracks we have in the
original game.

All fish-eye lenses and carping aside, I live in Toronto, I have driven the
Toronto track, I can see overhead and other photos of the other tracks.  The
CART:PR representations of them relative to the size/width of the car I am
driving is too narrow.  Either broaden the track or narrow the cars.  Even
with true precision controls (which we don't have yet), racing on wider
tracks is damned near impossible.  It is a futile exercise the way the game
is set-up now.

Marc.


>I doubt there will be a track editor of any use, if it is going to be a
>usable utility that could fix these problems, then why didn't TRI use it
>themselves.
>You have to also realize that any track change or creation will have to
have
>AI settings to go along with it. So far the AI has been the biggest
problem.

>I was starting to have a positive outlook on CPR when I used the 1.0.89
beta
>patch, but my opinion of 1.0.90 is back to the drawing board. the car went
>from totally controllable to uncontrollable.  I can't understand??????????

>Brian


>>Hopefully, TRi will release the track editor soon. Then some kind souls
can
>>correct any mistakes in the tracks.

>>Jim Getzen

>>Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ
>>http://members.home.net/getzen/


>>>>I had an opportunity to circumvent the Toronto track two years ago.  My
>>>>impressions of the track were that I could not believe that the drivers
>>were
>>>>able to race side by side through the very skinny sections of track.
>>>>Television does not represent how narrow these tracks really are.  I
>think
>>>>that TRI has done a good job with the tracks except for Burke Lakefront
>in
>>>>Cleveland. The front straight and pit area is totally wrong.

>>>Add surfer's paradise to the list of tracks that are _totally_ wrong.

>>>I know for a fact that real cart cars actually break for that first
>>>chicane, and actually have to steer there way through it!

>>>In CPR, I can barrel through there in top gear, no brakes, pointing
>>>almost totally striaght ahead, and just clipping the apexs!!!!

>>>Also the turn leading onto the straight is totally wrong too :((((

>>>Also, the fact that there are walls where their should be grass really
>>>annoys me. Sure it stops curb jumping, but shouldn't we, as drivers,
>>>make that conscience decision not to jump the curbs.

>>>I don't mind small inaccuracies in tracks, but these are inexcusable
>>>in my opinion.

>>>Ian Lake

George Sandma

CART:PR Patch Results

by George Sandma » Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>I doubt there will be a track editor of any use, if it is going to be a
>usable utility that could fix these problems, then why didn't TRI use it
>themselves.
>You have to also realize that any track change or creation will have to
have
>AI settings to go along with it. So far the AI has been the biggest
problem.

>I was starting to have a positive outlook on CPR when I used the 1.0.89
beta
>patch, but my opinion of 1.0.90 is back to the drawing board. the car went
>from totally controllable to uncontrollable.  I can't understand??????????

>Brian

Well Brian, Would you expect a 800+Hp indycar to  be easy to control?

they made the grip more realistic. if you were coming out of a corner and
put the gas to the floor would you not expect to spin?

I think this is the best fix so for in the patch. Now they do have some more
things that still need to be fixed but if we all respond to them with
suggestions on what still needs to be fixed maybe we can get another patch.

Well back to practice. Damn, All setups are now in the trash. and I am back
to the drawing board.

George

Randy Magrud

CART:PR Patch Results

by Randy Magrud » Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:00:00


>I'd still like to know what your steering set-up is....

It varies.  I  still haven't settled on an all around one yet.  I'm
still playing.

Good one!

I don't know a lot about photos.  I will say that when I see that
photo on the reference card, I can say its totally deceptive to how it
looks in real life at the same angle...an angle that regular visitors
to the track see every time they drive in the main entrance.

Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com

Byron Forbe

CART:PR Patch Results

by Byron Forbe » Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:00:00


> The track editor will be, from what I have understood MS and TRI to say,
> basically the same one they used to design the tracks we have in the
> original game.

> All fish-eye lenses and carping aside, I live in Toronto, I have driven the
> Toronto track, I can see overhead and other photos of the other tracks.  The
> CART:PR representations of them relative to the size/width of the car I am
> driving is too narrow.  Either broaden the track or narrow the cars.  Even
> with true precision controls (which we don't have yet), racing on wider
> tracks is damned near impossible.  It is a futile exercise the way the game
> is set-up now.

> Marc.

   Ditto.

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