rec.autos.simulators

by **Byron Forbe** » Mon, 17 May 2004 13:17:51

I must say that I agree with you 100% here. Just because there is
absolutely no way known to man that seat of the pants forces can be
simulated by a sim, that is no excuse to trade this for a bit of exaggerated
tyre squeal. It's just childish!

And whilst on things of a confusing nature, I must say Haqsau, that I'm
utterly bewildered that Papy haven't been consulting you on this stuff for
years! Imagine how embarrassed they must be now. And the blunder they made
with higher pressures in the rear actually making a car turn more. Talk
about egg all over their faces! I've said they're a bunch of ***y fools
right from the beginning! Ask anyone!

KerPlonk!

by **Byron Forbe** » Mon, 17 May 2004 13:27:53

Haqsau had previously been saying that "real life" racers told him that
they take air out of the rears to make their cars turn better. No one had
ever heard of them and it's no wonder. :) If he's now refering to others
that happen to have a clue - full apologies.

by **Joachim Trens** » Mon, 17 May 2004 16:26:19

...

That's what the noises are for - to indicate slip angle and magnitude of
slip before they become visually determinable; a job in a real car done
by the seat of pants feeling which is unavailable in sims.

This is hence a valid and useful means of simulating the real thing.

Tire noises change all the time btw, even before they lose grip, with
every change of slip angle or slip magnitude. Even when you corner at
moderate speeds, the tire's rolling noise changes, you just usually
don't hear it inside the car.

Achim

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 17 May 2004 21:30:04

That's not what I said at all. I was talking about the effect of tire
pressure on oversteer and understeer only, the rest of the conversation was
all your misinterpretation of what I said. The effects of tire pressure are
well known and well documented and I provided you with a large number of
links that proved it, which you chose to ignore. Apparently you think that
because you are fast in GPL that somehow means you know something about
vehicle dynamics. It doesn't and you don't. Go read a book or two, or
better yet take some classes. Right now you don't even know what you don't
know.

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 17 May 2004 21:41:24

KerPlonk? Are you killfiling me? Oh god I hope so.

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 17 May 2004 22:01:40

I don't buy the "seat of the pants" argument that everybody is falling back
on. Or maybe I just don't understand the point correctly. But I don't
believe that anyone can know the difference between 1.2 G and 1.3 G by seat
of the pants feel. Yet that's what the argument seems to be, that you can
tell by feel when you are nearing the limit. I disagree. I don't believe
that anybody has sufficient sensitivity to be able to tell when they are
pulling just the right amount of lateral force. In hundreds of laps in
karts I have never experienced that. I can tell by feel when I go *over*
the limit, and I can tell by feel if there is a sudden change in slip angle,
but these are both things that I can also tell without the seat of the pants
feel. Any good sim pilot will tell you that the first thing you have to
learn is the difference between the direction you appear to be going and the
direction you are actually going. That's something I learned back in the
80s when graphics and audio cues were poor and there weren't any force
feedback devices available at a consumer level, flying based on visual
feedback alone. In our case that translates to yaw angle, and visual
information is all you need to determine it. Try it. Turn the tire sounds
off and try a few laps. I don't think anybody here has, they would rather
just argue about it. I'm saying that with the *right attention* to visual
cues and to steering sensitivity one doesn't need any tire noises.

I must also repeat that I do believe people should have the choice to turn
them on or off. You can turn them on if you want but I don't want any game
that forces them on. If one is used to how a real car sounds, and used to
not pushing the car to the point of tire squeal, it is too confusing to go
back and forth between the two. I like to race karts in real life. I don't
like having to mentally change gears when going back and forth between karts
and sims. If you hear tire squeal in a kart you just blew your lap. So one
ends up either not pushing hard enough in the sim or pushing too hard in
real life. It's much easier (for me) to just turn the tire noises off and
drive both sims and real life the same way.

by **Joachim Trens** » Mon, 17 May 2004 23:06:52

> I don't buy the "seat of the pants" argument

I see what you're getting at and you have a point. Still, call it seat
of pants or whatever else, there's more situational awareness in a real
car than there is in a sim, and the tire squeal can make up for for this
to an extent.

But I agree, it should be optional.

It _is_ btw optional in Papy's sims. You can modify its volume in the
Options and in one of the inis (I forget where exactly, but there's a
parameter which allows you to tweak this).

Achim

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 17 May 2004 23:09:12

I know I can do that in NR2003, but is it possible in GPL also? I thought
the only way to change it in GPL was to change the wav file.

by **jbod** » Tue, 18 May 2004 00:50:48

Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing
abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I
can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants
physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement
indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no
problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I
seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened.

Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some
replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you
info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you
have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics
engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method
often used by arcade racers.

Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I
will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving
myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those
missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater
enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers
altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have
already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting
my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need
even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as
crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real
racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an
electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor
filled with pixels being e***d by electron bombardment (or diode
switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these
things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take
you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience?

I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for
what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great
One.

I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an
unrealistic tyre squeal again.

Thank you. Thank you so very much.

I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment.

I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you
have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the
pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent
lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your
secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim
racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered
conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it
all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality."

Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling.

-- JB

> To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I
> are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are
> talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking about
> the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With
> racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the
> latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this
> thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have to
> hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can do
> whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more
> consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and
> ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises so I
> guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for
> the rest of eternity.

> > That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as in
> my
> > example.

> > Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its not
> > perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so
> things
> > may be much different in future incarnations.

> > Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise
> feedback
> > to know the limit of traction.

> > Mitch

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 18 May 2004 01:46:47

Please tell me this is somebody impersonating John Bodin. I cannot believe
the real John Bodin would post utter ***like this. If this is the real
John Bodin, I suggest that in the future you wait until evening to start
drinking so heavily.

by **Mark Daviso** » Tue, 18 May 2004 01:46:36

Funny!

Nice one, JB!

Mark Davison
v8thunder.com

by **Mitch_** » Tue, 18 May 2004 02:24:10

I took it as a joke, albeit at your expense Hal. Surely not worth a flame
war or personal attacks. This will just have to be one of those "we agree
to disagree" situations :)

Most here (myself included) want realism. Some things just cannot be
simulated on a PC and this is one of those things. To make up for that lack
of realism we need a way to simulate what you feel/hear/see in real life.
Sound ques IMO fit the bill at the expense of a bit of reality. We all
think it should be user adjustable though so we do agree on the important
aspect of this discussion :).

Squealing is the wrong term. I should be using "scrubbing" as the
descriptive word.

Mitch

by **elrik** » Tue, 18 May 2004 02:26:21

LOL. Great Stuff.

Elrikk

by JP » Tue, 18 May 2004 02:30:46

Lol, good one.

> Well, in order for me to rise to the godlike level of your sim racing
> abilities, could you please explain to me -- in great detail -- how I
> can "watch my slip angle" without the proper seat-of-the-pants
> physical cues, and with nothing to provide some replacement
> indication? I already know how to nail my markers, so that part is no
> problem, but I wish to aspire to your Jedi-like level of greatness. I
> seek enlightenment, and apparently you are one of the enlightened.

> Of course, there's always a chance that by making do without some
> replacement cues (such as slightly amplified tyre sounds to give you
> info on slip angles) to replace the missing physical cues, maybe you
> have been able to achieve your harmonious zen state with the physics
> engine by adopting the mystical "damn-it-to-hell-I'm racing" method
> often used by arcade racers.

> Still, though, if that IS the pathway to sim racing enlightenment, I
> will walk that path with you, O Great Master -- and if depriving
> myself of physical sensations (and also sound cues to replace those
> missing physical sensations) will help me achieve greater
> enlightenment, then perhaps I should also unplug my speakers
> altogether to help me reach an even HIGHER plane than what you have
> already achieved. While I'm back there, I may also try disconnecting
> my monitor, and perhaps my wheel and pedals, too -- why would I need
> even those paltry visual cues or controller inputs to serve as
> crutches, when my ultimate goal is sim racing enlightenment? In real
> racing -- or even when driving a real car -- you don't have an
> electronic controller attached to a USB port, and there is no monitor
> filled with pixels being e***d by electron bombardment (or diode
> switching, depending on your monitor type), so why do we rely on these
> things to enhance our sim racing experience when all they do is take
> you further away from what you get with the REAL driving experience?

> I weep openly here as I type, finally seeing the sim racing truth for
> what it is, for you have opened my eyes and enlightened me, O Great
> One.

> I bow down before you, and I will smote my ears if I ever hear an
> unrealistic tyre squeal again.

> Thank you. Thank you so very much.

> I pray that all sim racers experience similar enlightenment.

> I will now go climb into my car, turn the key, and drive, for as you
> have shown me, there is no reality in racing simulations, so the
> pursuit is ultimately fruitless and unrewarding due to its inherent
> lack of realism on all counts. At last, I have discovered your
> secret, O Great Master, because for you and your kind, the true sim
> racing experience can ony be achieved via a petroleum-powered
> conveyance with four tyres and wheels, and -- oh the cosmic joke of it
> all -- for you and your kind, "GTR" must truly mean "Go Try Reality."

> Somewhere the patron saint of reality must surely be smiling.

> -- JB

- Show quoted text -

> > To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and
I
> > are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are
> > talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking
about
> > the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With
> > racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the
> > latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in
this
> > thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have
to
> > hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can
do
> > whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more
> > consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle
and
> > ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises
so I
> > guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games
for
> > the rest of eternity.

> > > That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as
in
> > my
> > > example.

> > > Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its
not
> > > perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so
> > things
> > > may be much different in future incarnations.

> > > Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise
> > feedback
> > > to know the limit of traction.

> > > Mitch

by **Haqsa** » Tue, 18 May 2004 03:27:29

I respect your opinion but there is a reason I keep coming back to this
point. You may have heard the argument about force-feedback versus the more
expensive, non-FF wheels like the TSW line. There are some very fast people
using non-FF wheels, and whenever the subject has come up the statement has
been made that force feedback is too late to be useful, that your eyes will
tell you what you need to know before the forces will. That argument still
holds when it comes to audio, IMO. Your eyes will tell you what you need to
know sooner and more reliably than the audio will. Trouble is, most people
are used to having that audio cue from Papy games and so they don't *think*
they can drive without it. But they most assuredly can. Anybody who can
slide a car around a corner without losing it, or who is capable of rescuing
a car from spin or a tankslapper, already has the intuitive feel necessary
to drive by eye. Audio doesn't help you in those situations and frankly FF
doesn't either. Seriously, there is no way audio or FF is of any help when
you are trying to save a car from a spin, there is too much latency in both
systems. What do you do? You look up the road in the direction you are
trying to go, hold the throttle steady and steer out of it. You don't think
about it, and you certainly don't listen for audio cues, you just do it,
intuitively. If you can do that you already have the skill necessary to
drive without the artificial tire sounds. And I believe most experienced
sim racers are capable of doing that, therefore I believe most experienced
sim racers do not *need* the artificial tire sounds. You will never know if
you can walk without crutches until you throw them away and try it. And you
can't quit if you fall down once either. Try it a few times, you might be
amazed at how good you really are. ;o)

rec.autos.simulators

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?

Who said slicks don't squeal?