rec.autos.simulators

by **jbod** » Sat, 15 May 2004 23:59:31

> > ...slicks ...make a squealing noise when pushed
> > beyond the limit...

> I think the original discussion years back was rather whether they
> squeal as loud and as early as they do in Papy's sims.

> Then the argument changed, as usually I'm tempted to say, as the
> discussion went on. Like the discussion about braking and being on the
> throttle at the same time, where loads of people said you couldn't do it
> for various reasons (because it ruined the brakes or whatever), then
> Schumacher's telemetry proved that he does it all the time and all of a
> sudden everybody had always exclusively claimed that you couldn't have
> done it in GPL cars - or something like that <g>

> Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter
> whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of
> pants feeling we don't have in sims.

> Achim

AMEN, Achim! Well-said! Until real, physical application of G-forces
becomes a "driving aid" that can be enabled or disabled, we NEED audio
feedback from the tyres to tell us what's going on in a racing sim.
Lose the audible tyre feedback and you're heading dangerously close to
the "arcade" realm, IMO.

-- JB

by **jbod** » Sun, 16 May 2004 00:05:49

> Well, I know a guy who can do 2:11s in the GTR demo without corner cutting
> and without amplifying the tyre sounds. Excess tyre squealing should only
> be available as a driver aid if at all.

Once realistic G-forces are available to me as a "driving aid," I'll
agree with your statement about excess tyre squealing.

And I disagree that existing sims (like those from Papy) have
"excessive" tyre squeal -- it's just brought to the forefront to serve
as fill-in for the missing physical sensations. In a static, 2D
representation of a 3D activity, you have to find other ways to convey
the actions that are usually detected by other sensory perceptions; in
a fixed PC-based racing sim with no motion platform, all you have are
auditory and visual perception cues, and you have to use these methods
to fill in for the missing tactile and dimensional impressions you get
from your inner ear and the seat of your pants (or your solar plexus,
if you want to be pedantic).

Maybe the guy who can do 2:11s is just very good with arcade racers,
perhaps, so he's able to make-do in GTR because he's not used to
getting ALL the necessary feedback cues . . .

;-)

-- JB

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 16 May 2004 01:58:43

But aren't these the people that are so stupid that they can't even work
out that puting air in the rears will make the car turn better? How could
they possibly hear any tire squeal over all the metal rims grinding on the
track?

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 16 May 2004 02:07:00

> Anyway, we need exaggerated and premature tire squeal in sims, no matter
> whether the real tires do it, simply to make up some for the seat of
> pants feeling we don't have in sims.

> Achim

Perfect. :) Saved me a post.

by **Maxx** » Sun, 16 May 2004 02:11:55

Achim,

I agree with you on this.

You can perhaps get across front-wheel slide feedback solely from
really good Force Feedback (as you feel this almost exclusively
via the steering wheel), unfortunately there are so many variables
here that it rarely seems to provide the correct type of sensation
(i.e. steering gets lighter).

Rear slide is very, very subtle, even as a seat of the pants
sensation and really, we need some audible feedback here to
compensate for the lack of physical feedback

Eldred : How you doin Buddy, I still read r.a.s. pretty regular
and post very occasionally :)

Maxx

by **J.D. Elli** » Sun, 16 May 2004 03:10:09

The in-car trans am stuff I've seen definitely has audible

Likewise, I've heard Champ Cars have a slight squeal/chatter on the concrete
apex patches at Mid-Ohio, esp in the slow Carousel.

-jde

by **Damien Evan** » Sun, 16 May 2004 16:28:45

The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without
turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgy speakers
you probably won't hear them but they're there...

by **Damien Evan** » Sun, 16 May 2004 16:44:21

That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while. That's
like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims to make
up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like I have
better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealistic screeching
as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds.

by **Damien Evan** » Sun, 16 May 2004 16:46:00

Er....no. Why would you say that?

by **Joachim Trens** » Sun, 16 May 2004 20:09:08

> The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without
> turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgy speakers
> you probably won't hear them but they're there...

What's audible or not often depends on the characteristics of your
speakers or amp/preamp/soundcard hardware. You may indeed hear them well
while others don't.

Achim

by **Joachim Trens** » Sun, 16 May 2004 20:11:01

...

If you replace a real life cue which is not present in a simulation with
another cue giving your comparable information, that's one way of
actually simulating things. It just depends on how it's done.

Achim

by **Haqsa** » Sun, 16 May 2004 23:23:55

Agreed. I find it confusing to have a sound in a sim that is not there in
real life. But I think that people here are so used to having that noise in
Papy sims that it has become a crutch for them. They think they need it,
but they don't. Nevertheless I'm glad that in GTR they are allowing the
volumes of the noises to be adjusted so that people that want it can have it
and people who don't can tune it out.

by **Mitch_** » Mon, 17 May 2004 02:59:17

That's my point. The sound IS there in real life and Ive heard it, as in my
example.

Ive tinkered with the scrubbing volume and although it does help its not
perfect (very little rear tire feedback). It is a pre-alpha demo so things
may be much different in future incarnations.

Big difference between dumbed down physics and a little tire noise feedback
to know the limit of traction.

Mitch

> Agreed. I find it confusing to have a sound in a sim that is not there in
> real life. But I think that people here are so used to having that noise
in
> Papy sims that it has become a crutch for them. They think they need it,
> but they don't. Nevertheless I'm glad that in GTR they are allowing the
> volumes of the noises to be adjusted so that people that want it can have
it
> and people who don't can tune it out.

> > That's one of the strangest things I've read in hear for a while.
That's
> > like somebody saying that we should have dumbed down physics in sims to
> make
> > up for the lack of G-Forces. Maybe I'm just weird, but I feel like I
have
> > better feel in GTR than I did in GTR 2002 which had unrealistic
screeching
> > as opposed to GTR's subtle (but certainly present) scrubbing sounds.

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Mon, 17 May 2004 04:45:20

> > The strange thing is, I can hear the scrubbing sounds just fine without
> > turning them up. Sure, they're not loud and if you've got dodgy
speakers
> > you probably won't hear them but they're there...

> What's audible or not often depends on the characteristics of your
> speakers or amp/preamp/soundcard hardware. You may indeed hear them well
> while others don't.

True - using a ***Plantronics headset at the moment to keep from breaking
any windows with my normal speakers. Didn't have to turn the tire sounds up
much at all; just a bit did the trick.

by **Haqsa** » Mon, 17 May 2004 12:15:07

To repeat my earlier reply to you in this thread, I don't think you and I
are talking about the same thing. If I understand you correctly you are
talking about squealing that happens after you lose grip, I am talking about
the Papy tire squealing that happens slightly before losing grip. With
racing slicks on a well conditioned track the former is realistic, the
latter is not, and we just had testimony from a racing instructor in this
thread verifying that. As long as I can set up GTR so that I don't have to
hear tire squeal before losing grip I will be happy, the rest of you can do
whatever you want. My opinion is that you can race a whole lot more
consistently if you learn to nail your markers and watch your slip angle and
ignore the noises, but some people just can't let go of the Papy noises so I
guess we will have to have them available in all future driving games for
the rest of eternity.

rec.autos.simulators

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