rec.autos.simulators

by **Marc Collin** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

No, they are not excellent simulations. The relatively pathetic physics
models are exactly why they are not excellent simulations. Add in pathetic
steering wheel controller support, pathetic FFB, ludicrously unrealistic
damage modelling, etc. etc. etc., and you have more reasons to support the
claim that they are NOT excellent simulations.

Are they fun games to beat around a bit with? Perhaps. Are they worth the
money? Perhaps, if you like that sort of game. Unfortunately, the title of
this newsgroup includes the word simulator, which means even relatively
decent and fun games (the original NFS, Interstate '76, SCGT before its
physics patch, CART:PR because of it's couple of horrid flaws) get short
shrift here. Shouldn't be a surprise. As soon a something comes out that
surpasses GPL, you'll hear a lot less talk of GPL on this newsgroup.

Marc.

> F1 2000 and NFSPU are excellent simulations. Just because the physics
> models are not up to the high standards of GPL does not mean that they are
> not worthwhile titles. These games have excellent physics models. In
many
> other ways, both these games are superior to GPL.
> We need to look at the new sims that have been released recently with a
more
> open mind. If we want to knock some titles, try games like Test Drive 5
> that have no basis in reality.

> RO (rant over)
> ...Colin

> > We need our fellow sim advocates to help us differentiate between games
> and
> > sims in situations such as these. GPL is a very serious sim, while
titles
> > such as those (NFS F12K) I have absolutely no use for. Hell GT2 for the
> PSX
> > is almost better at the genre than those two games.

> > Please, when rating these games save us all the time and money and
hassle
> > and make it clear that they have nothing on GPL physics.

by **Don Burnett** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Well, here's a new guy with some thoughts as well. I frequently read this
newsgroup, just don't post here too often.
Where do you get that the GPL lovers constantly bash newer sims? I've seen
Pat post very postitive comments on F12000 here recently. Alison Hine, a
huge GPL fan, did the same as well. Actually, I was on the fence based on
mixed responses on F12000 until I read those two's posts. Now, I will buy it
and give it a shot.
Nonetheless, GPL without question set new standards when it came out, heck
standards that may have been too high for Papy themselves. Yes, by today's
standards, the graphics and sound are somewhat dated, but it is still to
this day, it is the most realistic racing simulator developed.
I personally don't get to spend much time with it. To be proficient and
competitive in GPL requires quite a bit of time, and I just don't have it
right now to give. I do run it every now and then just for the pleasure of
running those old beasts, and enjoy a physics model that is second to none.
I only got to dabble with Vroc in the early days, but even then I didn't
have any trouble racing online with it.
GPL raised the bar on racing simulators, no question. Developers know it.
It's good for everyone. I very much look foward to other titles coming out
that increase the realism with the physics modeling as well, and would love
to see one that gave GPL a run for it's money in the physics department. We,
the racing sim consumer, are the ones that will gain from this in the end.

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends

> Same people. Same old words.

> David G Fisher

> > Oh, nonsense - remember, the name of the newsgroup is
> rec.autos.SIMULATORS,
> > *not* rec.autos.games. Since the key word here is SIMULATORS, I see no
> > reason why other titles shouldn't be compared to GPL and its value as a
> > SIMULATOR. Others may have prettier graphics, or may work with a wider
> > range of graphics cards, but in the genre of automotive SIMULATORS, GPL
> has
> > no equal. Period.

> > And I wish it wasn't so, quite frankly...............but if GPL was
truly
> > the last of the great racing sims, we can at least be thankful that this
> > work of art made it out the door before the bean counters stifled
> everything
> > at Sierra.

> > Rick

by **Intimidato** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:35:52 -0400, "Colin" <colin AT yourmiata DOT

>People, we really need to stop with this "nothing on GPL" bullshit.
>This newsgroup is entitled 'rec.autos.simulators' not
>'rec.autos.I.love.GPL.everything.else.sucks'
>F1 2000 and NFSPU are excellent simulations. Just because the physics
>models are not up to the high standards of GPL does not mean that they are
>not worthwhile titles. These games have excellent physics models. In many
>other ways, both these games are superior to GPL.
>We need to look at the new sims that have been released recently with a more
>open mind. If we want to knock some titles, try games like Test Drive 5
>that have no basis in reality.

>RO (rant over)
>...Colin

Very well said. Not every sim has to have the physics model of GPL to
deliver a satisfying and enjoyable experience. I think some people
take one look at a sim and say, "bah, this drives nothing like GPL.
Crap! Sheer, utter crap!" which is fine if the only reason you play
racing sims is to have the absolute, most true to life driving model
possible. However, if you like to play sims more for the experience
of high speed, close competition, then some of the other, non GPL
"crap," is outstanding, and even more enjoyable than GPL in some cases
(IMHO), despite having a "light" physics model. Games like NASCAR 3,
SCGT and NFS:PU are some that come to mind. GPL is a good game, but I
think some people go overboard in their praise of it. I read one post
where someone surmized that, because they could match the lap times of
real life F1 drivers while playing GPL, they must therefore be every
bit as skilled as real F1 drivers. Geez!!! Gimme a break! Perhaps a
better name for the group should be: rec.isleep.with.my.copy.of.gpl.

P.S. I bought GPL about a month after it came out, have played it a
lot, and really enjoy it. But, it has most definitely NOT spoiled me.

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

uh, no..if and when a gpl beater comes out...Then we start queing up
all the
Concourse de GPL historic posts. Don't worry, even if WSC and GP3
flatten GPL,
there will be users here that won't let go...easily :)
dave henrie

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

"Pat Dotson" <pdot...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:38EA82DA.8F740668@mindspring.com...

> Dave sure is fun.

> > Same old words from the same old name. Predictable as usual.

> "Inciteful" is a better word in this context.

> The phrase "same old" makes me thing of
> people like Remco, Marty U'ren, John
> Wallace, and others. They have evidently
> permanently kill-filed you because they
> never respond to you anymore.

Did they tell you that during one of your VROC chats? Thankfully, only a few
more to go. You too soon I hope. Didn't you promise me long ago that you
wouldn't be reading any more of my posts?

For anyone who cares, Pat portrayed me as the devil in disguise two years
ago when I committed the unforgivable sin of <gasp> insisting that CPR had
some excellent qualities. I helped quite a few people with setups and
controller issues. Pat couldn't get his controller to work well at all, and
took his frustration out on me in front of this newsgroup.

Now, he's back to save r.a.s. from me all over again.

> Funny how you don't find yourself
> "predictable"? hehe

> > First of all Pat, RC2000 is not "my" sim. I didn't make it, or profit
off of
> > it, so it's just another sim to me.

> In this news group, for the past year,
> you have been Mr. RC2000.

Your buddy Remco accused me of hyping F12000 just a couple of weeks ago. So
am I Mr. RC2000 or Mr. F12000? Or am I simply guilty of liking too many
sims?

> > I enjoy a number of different sims and have no ridiculous allegiance to
any
> > one developer. I admire what MANY developers have done with various
sims.

> That's a king-size straw man. Who is this
> fictitious person with a "ridiculous
> allegiance to any one developer"? I
> haven't seen any here.

No, there's no Papyrus fan club here.

>Everyone is
> impatient for GP3 and WSC, whether they
> like GPL or not. Lots of GPL guys even
> like RC2000 and F12K - imagine that.

> > I'm just very tired of being bored by the GPL crowd and watching them
give
> > poor advise to the newcomers who visit this newsgroup.

> We're all tired and bored, but not at
> the same things apparently.

> Commenting that a supposed sim does not
> model physics to the extent that GPL does,
> does not constitute "advise" (or advice, for
> those watching at home).

They say a hell of a lot more than "a supposed sim does not
model physics to the extent that GPL does". If you've been reading this
newsgroup at all the past few weeks, or even this thread, you've seen that
quite a few people besides myself are sick of what GPL fans have to say.

Thanks for correcting my spelling. You've proven your briliance to us all.

- Show quoted text -

> > >And one other thing, the 'same group of guys'
> > > who have been ragging on everything that
> > > is not GPL are in fact a 'whole new group
> > > of guys'. I don't even recognize most of
> > > those names.

> > The quote above is ridiculous. GPL sold a handful of copies.........2
years
> > ago. Has there suddenly been a half million new copies of GPL flying off
the
> > shelves?

> You've taken leave from your senses again.

> I've seen a lot of guys on here who have said that
> they've tried GPL again recently, after not
> caring for it when released, who are hooked.
> How did anyone have to sell 500,000 copies of
> anything for that to happen?

Seem like the same names to me.

- Show quoted text -

> > I read the same names month, after month, after month going on about the
GPL
> > physics. I pulled GPL out of mothballs (played it for a total of maybe 4
> > hours in the past year) two weeks ago and did a 1:28 at Monza after a
half
> > hour of half hearted practice. Such an overwhelmingly realistic
experience.
> > I really felt at one with the physics of this "work of art". My 20 year
old
> > neighbor who never had tried GPL before did a 1:29 after an hour. I
asked
> > him afterwards if he felt moved to compose a poem of love for the GPL
> > physics model. For some reason, he didn't.

> How does doing a fast lap make GPL less
> realistic? 1:28 is not that fast.

Under the conditions I described, yes, it is fast. I don't have a million
laps under my belt like most of the GPL die-hards do. If the physics were as
amazingly realistic as I've been told, then I, and my neighbor, shouldn't
come close to those times. However advanced the physics model is, it's still
not any more realistic than many other racing games I've tried.

> > Steer left. Steer right. Accelerate. Brake. All the while marveling at
the
> > the boring, dated graphics and the crappy frame rate, no weather
effects, no
> > pitting, average sound, jump through hoops only to be disco'ed
multi-player
> > feature. 1:28. Get the point yet?

> What sim are you playing?

> I get the point. Yes, the point is you are
> hopelessly biased against GPL, and it is your
> crusade to somehow prove that it's not worthy.

Who told you? Actually, I've said many, many times that it's an excellent
sim. It simulates the '67 F1 season very well. That's all it does. BTW,
computer sims are not THAT important in the big picture of life, so you'll
just have to trust me when I say that I am not on any "crusade" to destroy
GPL. Thanks for the laugh.

> > It's........just........a......friggen..........game.

> > To say that I'm "single-minded" is kind of funny as now four different
> > developers in the past two years have asked me to beta test for them.
Why
> > would they do that?

> I don't know. Same reason I beta test for
> six different developers? You are going
> to have to try harder to impress us.

I could care less about impressing whoever "us" is. Is "us" the GPL fan
club? The reason I mention my beta testing is that developers have told me
that they could care less about what the GPL zealots have to say about sims
(they've heard it all), and tend to avoid r.a.s. all together. Among other
things, they ask for unbiased feedback, which I give them. If one
particular group of people here at r.a.s don't like my opinions, then that's
probably a good thing.

> > People who are fans of sims like SCGT, MGPRS2, DTR, RC2000, GP500, GP2,

> > SBK2000, F12000 never seem to have an issue with my posts. Only GPL
> > groupies. Says it all right there, doesn't it?

> That's because you don't constantly and incessantly
> rail against the users of "SCGT, MGPRS2, DTR,
> RC2000, GP500, GP2, SBK2000, F12000", the
> way you do at the slightest expression of
> opinion that GPL might be the best sim
> available.

Cnstantly and incessantly? A slight exaggertion. I don't rail against the
others because there is never any reason to. GPL die hards are so damn
sensitive to what people like me say for some reason, and there's nothing I
can do to control that. Simply not agreeing to their declaration of GPL as
superior to all other sims sends them into a fit. Look now many of you kids
responded to my post in just this thread.

> > I am one of the people on this newsgroup who WELCOMES new sims and
insists
> > on not being NEGATIVE towards the efforts of other developers.

> Well, excuse me for not recognizing your
> sainthood. I won't let it happen again.

Thanks.

> > I give
> > newcomers advise which encourages them to look at the positives of
various
> > sims, instead of trying to drag them into the the "cult of GPL".

> > Bad Dave.

> > David G Fisher

> So now we are all cultists? You are so
> predictable.

That was not to be taken literally. Since you are so smart and are able to
correct my spelling, I thought you'd understand.

> I think I just saw Janet Reno out in the
> yard.

I guess she finally escaped from your room? She's not my type, but I do hope
you can convince her to come back to you.

> Best wishes,

> --
> Pat Dotson
> IMPACT Motorsports
> http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Brought a tear to my eye.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

No. The difference between myself and people like you is I would never jump
to the conclusion that the 1:28 was any indication whatsoever as to how
talented a racer I was. It's just a game. Physics model, schmysics model.

Heard that before. Funny thing is, I have been racing online for three years
now, and GPL is the only sim/game which was a problem. A huge problem. BTW,
even Alison Hine recently commented on this newsgroup that she'd like
Papyrus to do a GPL patch, and in it address the disconnection problems.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Still talking about me, Davey K?

With all the posts you repond to each day, each filled with such incredible
wit, I'd say that you are the Davey at r.a.s. with all the energy.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Yes, I'm so pissed off. I take "sim talk" that seriously.

If you'd like, I can show you another forum where RC has been mentioned
20,000 separate times in six months. You can check sales figures of the two
sims and draw your own conclusions as to how many people in htis world will
be discussing, and playing, those two sims tomorrow.

David G Fisher

> > Same people. Same old words.

> > David G Fisher

> LOL! Are you just pissed off that the "GPL Killer" that was RC2000 hardly
> gets a mention?
> I don't understand what you've got against folks who state their enjoyment
> of GPL. People only do it because it's a good sim. As soon as a better
one
> appears the topics will shift. No one is blindly evangelising GPL just
> because it's GPL.

> Mark

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

I agree 100% with everything you've said in this post.

David G Fisher

> > Oh, nonsense - remember, the name of the newsgroup is

rec.autos.SIMULATORS,

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:35:52 -0400, "Colin" <colin AT yourmiata DOT

>Perhaps a
> better name for the group should be: rec.isleep.with.my.copy.of.gpl.

No, most of them have two copies now since it has recently been
re-released.. :-)

For awhile, I enjoyed it a lot too.

David G Fisher

by **Jo Hels** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

You guys should definitely check out the two "Monstrous thought
provoking sim vs arcade" thread by Le Professeur of a few days ago.

It does an extensive investigation into the different aspects that are
important to judge the quality of a "sim".

Hard work, though.. <G>

JoH

by **Andre Warrin** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Indeed David, indeed. You are becoming really boring.

Andre

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

[snip]

> > How does doing a fast lap make GPL less
> > realistic? 1:28 is not that fast.

> Under the conditions I described, yes, it is fast. I don't have a million
> laps under my belt like most of the GPL die-hards do. If the physics were as
> amazingly realistic as I've been told, then I, and my neighbor, shouldn't
> come close to those times. However advanced the physics model is, it's still
> not any more realistic than many other racing games I've tried.

[pins]

Huh? I would expect a realistic physics model to make it easier to
learn for an experienced driver since 'real' knowledge would apply
to a higher degree. 'Realistic' do not imply 'hard' (and 'hard'
of course don't imply 'realistic').

You can count me in as one of the 'new' users of GPL, I tried it for
the first time last summer. I like it most for the feeling of
driving something that really reacts to the track and the driver,
and in a way that feels realistic.

Imo this feeling comes from the combination of a nice physics
model and the fact that the cars modelled have soft springs and
no downforce, making them really move on the suspension. I have
never tried anything coming close to the feeling of driving
the Nurburgring in GPL with a force feedback wheel.

GPL or even the GPL physics is far from perfect, though.
Possible improvements could include better AI (e.g. AI that
don't assume the car in front is driving exactly as they would),
better sound (how about car sounds that react to throttle position?),
adjustable field of view and max frame rate (36 fps just ain't
enough, with 72 I might be happy), a physics model that is more
stable with less than the max frame rate, ride height and toe in
affecting drag, etc, etc.

GPL just happens to be the only car sim so far good enough to get
_me_ really hooked.

In my book 1:28 at Monza without lots of training is damn fast, btw.

_
Mats Lofkvist

by **Remco Moe** » Thu, 06 Apr 2000 04:00:00

>> The phrase "same old" makes me thing of
>> people like Remco, Marty U'ren, John
>> Wallace, and others. They have evidently
>> permanently kill-filed you because they
>> never respond to you anymore.

>Did they tell you that during one of your VROC chats? Thankfully, only a few
>more to go. You too soon I hope. Didn't you promise me long ago that you
>wouldn't be reading any more of my posts?

Sorry Dave, I still read your postings..... <g>

Last year was 1999, now it's 2000 <g> BTW, I did "accuse" you from
hyping F1-2000, and I also answered your post where you asked for
prove.... not that's very important....

I do wonder why you never answer my questions when they are detailed,
various questions about the physics of RC2000 comes to mind...

Kisses,

Remco

rec.autos.simulators

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?

Has GPL spoiled you ?