rec.autos.simulators

by **Stefan Larsso** » Tue, 06 May 2003 15:35:30

> Good AI and good graphics are not mutually exclusive and until a console
> does superior online racing than good AI is critical to a RACING game. GTR
> 2002 is a fine example of the best of both worlds. No reason to ever dabble
> with the MISSING AI in GT3 and only 6 cars of competition when I can run
> against 30+ cars in GTR2002 and enjoy the finest sports car RACING
> available. The issue is driving vs. racing; GT3 is not racing.

> BTW, GT3 only keeps you busy for a year if you find the AI competent and fun
> which I did not. The goal in GT3 is to race past the AI quickly before they
> drive you off the road. That's not racing, that's jousting. :)

Ok, I find some aspects of GT3 quite boring. One is the fact that it is
possible to obtain a car that outperforms the competition in such a
manner that it is virtually impossible to lose. That IS boring. When
the races get tighter the computer always drives dirty. Yes, I get your
point... The fun in GT3 is the graphics and the hotlapping. Not the
competition.
I never rely on "good AI" to get a good race, since there are no "good
AI" out there. The only good (fun) competitors are my friends. Period!

Well, but my point is still there. When I used to play around with my
Amiga there were Silicon Graphics machines out there which outperformed
everything in graphics. Still, no one bought such a machine since it was
too expensive and didn't have many games compared to the Amiga. (ok,
maybe a bad example, but I hope you get the point)... If there are no
games that attracts a certain individual on console-X compared to
console-Y, it is natural to get console-Y, even if it has "worse"
hardware. I still play old classics like Giana Sisters and Bubble Bobble
on the C64, even if the hardware "sucks" compared to present hardware. :)

I am 26 and I cannot change to Xbox since I'm ***ed to GT3 :\ But on
the PC there is Live for Speed and GPL... A couple of years ago I
found Need for speed III awesome. Today I don't even want to look at it
due to its arcadefeeling. Who knows what kind of game I'll like tomorrow?

--
/S

by **Steve Smit** » Tue, 06 May 2003 19:54:42

Hi Joe,

I gleaned the info over on the AVS forum (or maybe Ars Technica), but can't
relocate it. The gist of it was that whatever the Xbox can do, the
"PS2-1/2" will be able to do.

More info on the upgraded chip powering this baby:

----------------------
Sony plans to launch volume production of new 90nm integratred PlayStation 2
chip combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and Graphics in the
spring of 2003 combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and
Graphics Synthesizer (GS) in a single 90nm chip..

Chip specifications:
EE: 128-bit RISC processor
GS: parallel rendering and built-in DRAM
Process technology: 90nm
Transistors total: 53.5 million
Built-in DRAM: 4Mb
Memory cell size: 0.19m?
Clock rate: 294.912MHz
Energy consumption: 8W (vs. current 37W)
Metallization: 5 layers
Crystal size: 86mm? (vs. current 413mm? of EE and GS)
Package: 536-pin EBGA
Production will be launched at Oita TS Semiconductor (OTSS) facility, SCEI
and Toshiba Corporation joint venture, in Fall also launching at proprietary
SCEI fab in Isahaya City.
----------------------

Considering the present PS2 has no fps probs w. GT3A, I doubt that GT4 will
suffer.

--Steve

> Steve, do you mean 1080i (which is 1920x1080 interlaced - more detailed
than
> 1024x768)? That will look amazing. My cable co. just hooked me up with
> HDTV for free (HBO, ABC, NBC and PBS) and it actually looks better than
some
> DVD's (my set is 4:3 but is 1080i capable). I'm pretty sure the Xbox can
> currently do 1080i (a handful of games are 720p) but I don't think any
game
> would run at 60 fps at such a high resolution. Here's to the PS3 and
Xbox2!
> :)

> --
> Joe M.

> > Consoles can now be played on HDTVs (there's a better PS2 in the
> works--call
> > it the PS2-1/2--which will support 1080p), which is the equivalent of
abt.
> > 1020x768...on a 30-inch (or larger) screen.

> > > people still play games at tv resolution? Gah. :)

by **Kyle Robert** » Wed, 07 May 2003 04:29:19

That doesn't sound like an upgrade. Sounds like the same thing they did with
the PS1. Cheaper, smaller, and cooler.

Kyle

by **K e v i n** » Wed, 07 May 2003 09:37:36

Hmm, maybe the MS will do something similar.

Call it the Xbox pro or something. Throw in a 1.7Ghz Celeron, faster and
more RAM, a larger HD and a better GF4 vid chip. I can picture this
happening. Can't wait.

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 07 May 2003 09:40:55

If you don't think HDTV is an upgrade...don't buy it!

--Lido Iacocca

> > Hi Joe,

> > I gleaned the info over on the AVS forum (or maybe Ars Technica), but
> can't
> > relocate it. The gist of it was that whatever the Xbox can do, the
> > "PS2-1/2" will be able to do.

> > More info on the upgraded chip powering this baby:

> > ----------------------
> > Sony plans to launch volume production of new 90nm integratred
PlayStation
> 2
> > chip combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and Graphics in
> the
> > spring of 2003 combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and
> > Graphics Synthesizer (GS) in a single 90nm chip..

> That doesn't sound like an upgrade. Sounds like the same thing they did
with
> the PS1. Cheaper, smaller, and cooler.

> Kyle

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 07 May 2003 09:51:04

MS wants to drop the price of the Xbox to $150, but they're already losing
$100+ per box 'cuz of that 'spensive HD. Solution: split the product line
into Xbox 2 (due Xmas 2004), a set-top box that will play DVDs, run your TV,
stream video, comply w. MS' new video initiative, surf the Internet, and--oh
yeah--play games; AND Xbox Lite (not it's real name; due Xmas 2003) that
will "only" play games...and cost less to manufacture 'cuz the $$$ HD has
been replaced with Flash memory cards. Sony learns of this and sez, "Oh
yeah? Two can play that game," and builds a better, faster, cheaper PS2.
Of course, I could be wrong....

by **K e v i n** » Wed, 07 May 2003 09:57:24

Now that would be sweet. They are loosing $100+ per box only if their users
don't buy the 9+ games they are supposed to (read that this was the
average). Doesn't matter, they are in this for the long haul. Loosing
$100 a box is there admission price to this competition.

The Xbox modders are showing them the way with features people want. I sure
hope they throw TVO-esk features into the next one, that would be too cool.
4+Gig flash cards aren't cheap, but they will be though. That would be a
good idea, might make the consoles a bit smaller too.

They need a web cam and home security system in there too! ;-)

> MS wants to drop the price of the Xbox to $150, but they're already losing
> $100+ per box 'cuz of that 'spensive HD. Solution: split the product line
> into Xbox 2 (due Xmas 2004), a set-top box that will play DVDs, run your
TV,
> stream video, comply w. MS' new video initiative, surf the Internet,
and--oh
> yeah--play games; AND Xbox Lite (not it's real name; due Xmas 2003) that
> will "only" play games...and cost less to manufacture 'cuz the $$$ HD has
> been replaced with Flash memory cards. Sony learns of this and sez, "Oh
> yeah? Two can play that game," and builds a better, faster, cheaper PS2.
> Of course, I could be wrong....

> > Hmm, maybe the MS will do something similar.

> > Call it the Xbox pro or something. Throw in a 1.7Ghz Celeron, faster
and
> > more RAM, a larger HD and a better GF4 vid chip. I can picture this
> > happening. Can't wait.

by **K e v i n** » Wed, 07 May 2003 09:59:07

It's an upgrade for sure. I love my 51" HDTV (Sony of course) and the 5.1
Dolby Digtal from my Xbox.

> If you don't think HDTV is an upgrade...don't buy it!

> --Lido Iacocca

> > > Hi Joe,

> > > I gleaned the info over on the AVS forum (or maybe Ars Technica), but
> > can't
> > > relocate it. The gist of it was that whatever the Xbox can do, the
> > > "PS2-1/2" will be able to do.

> > > More info on the upgraded chip powering this baby:

> > > ----------------------
> > > Sony plans to launch volume production of new 90nm integratred
> PlayStation
> > 2
> > > chip combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and Graphics
in
> > the
> > > spring of 2003 combining DRAM memory, EmotionEngine (EE) processor and
> > > Graphics Synthesizer (GS) in a single 90nm chip..

> > That doesn't sound like an upgrade. Sounds like the same thing they did
> with
> > the PS1. Cheaper, smaller, and cooler.

> > Kyle

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 07 May 2003 20:09:18

Sony makes money on every PS2 they sell (cost long-since amortized) *and* on
every game. In fact, Sony's games division is the most profitable in the
whole company (which includes TV sets, movie studios, music publishers,
etc.). MS' games division, OTOH, lost a third of a billion bucks last year.
Their h/w is hemorrhaging cash and the games aren't selling at all (with a
couple of obvious exceptions like Halo). The one bright spot in MS' picture
is that their online program (broadband-only vs. Sony's bb+dial-up) is
pulling even w. Sony's. Like I say, Gran Turismo 4 (due this fall) should
be a killer online game, altho beaten to market by MS' first big online
driving game, Midtown Madness (due this summer). I've driven MM, BTW, and
it's really great...for an arcade racer.

Yes, the Xbox 2 will have a TiVo-like feature. Sony's version of
"convergence" will be a couple years more down the road.

> Now that would be sweet. They are loosing $100+ per box only if their
users
> don't buy the 9+ games they are supposed to (read that this was the
> average). Doesn't matter, they are in this for the long haul. Loosing
> $100 a box is there admission price to this competition.

> The Xbox modders are showing them the way with features people want. I
sure
> hope they throw TVO-esk features into the next one, that would be too
cool.
> 4+Gig flash cards aren't cheap, but they will be though. That would be a
> good idea, might make the consoles a bit smaller too.

> They need a web cam and home security system in there too! ;-)

> > MS wants to drop the price of the Xbox to $150, but they're already
losing
> > $100+ per box 'cuz of that 'spensive HD. Solution: split the product
line
> > into Xbox 2 (due Xmas 2004), a set-top box that will play DVDs, run your
> TV,
> > stream video, comply w. MS' new video initiative, surf the Internet,
> and--oh
> > yeah--play games; AND Xbox Lite (not it's real name; due Xmas 2003) that
> > will "only" play games...and cost less to manufacture 'cuz the $$$ HD
has
> > been replaced with Flash memory cards. Sony learns of this and sez, "Oh
> > yeah? Two can play that game," and builds a better, faster, cheaper
PS2.
> > Of course, I could be wrong....

> > > Hmm, maybe the MS will do something similar.

> > > Call it the Xbox pro or something. Throw in a 1.7Ghz Celeron, faster
> and
> > > more RAM, a larger HD and a better GF4 vid chip. I can picture this
> > > happening. Can't wait.

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 07 May 2003 20:16:47

Oh, and the mem cards don't need to be 4-Gb (currently abt. $500). As Sony
(and Nintendo) have proved, you only need a new megabytes to save game
options/preferences/scores and even fairly long replays. The main thing
Flash memory would do for MS is to get the cost of the memory out of the box
and leave it up to the consumer. For abt. the cost of an 8-Mb memory
cartridge for the PS2, you'll prolly be able to get a 32-Mb. memory card for
the Xbox Lite.

> Now that would be sweet. They are loosing $100+ per box only if their
users
> don't buy the 9+ games they are supposed to (read that this was the
> average). Doesn't matter, they are in this for the long haul. Loosing
> $100 a box is there admission price to this competition.

> The Xbox modders are showing them the way with features people want. I
sure
> hope they throw TVO-esk features into the next one, that would be too
cool.
> 4+Gig flash cards aren't cheap, but they will be though. That would be a
> good idea, might make the consoles a bit smaller too.

> They need a web cam and home security system in there too! ;-)

> > MS wants to drop the price of the Xbox to $150, but they're already
losing
> > $100+ per box 'cuz of that 'spensive HD. Solution: split the product
line
> > into Xbox 2 (due Xmas 2004), a set-top box that will play DVDs, run your
> TV,
> > stream video, comply w. MS' new video initiative, surf the Internet,
> and--oh
> > yeah--play games; AND Xbox Lite (not it's real name; due Xmas 2003) that
> > will "only" play games...and cost less to manufacture 'cuz the $$$ HD
has
> > been replaced with Flash memory cards. Sony learns of this and sez, "Oh
> > yeah? Two can play that game," and builds a better, faster, cheaper
PS2.
> > Of course, I could be wrong....

> > > Hmm, maybe the MS will do something similar.

> > > Call it the Xbox pro or something. Throw in a 1.7Ghz Celeron, faster
> and
> > > more RAM, a larger HD and a better GF4 vid chip. I can picture this
> > > happening. Can't wait.

by **Steve Simpso** » Wed, 07 May 2003 20:48:52

Hardly surprising - there's nothing cutting-edge about the PS2's
hardware....

by **Steve Simpso** » Wed, 07 May 2003 21:06:34

You make it sound like the consumers are paying extra to have a hard-disk
inside their Xboxs. Last time I checked, the Xbox was about the same price
as the (memory-less) PS2. I've seen how long it takes a PS2 to load games -
despite their inferior graphics and 2-channel sound.

When you buy an Xbox, you're not buying a device - you're buying a
distribution channel for games. It's kind of like cable TV - the companies
don't make money out of the STBs - it's the content that makes the money.

It's just a shame that it takes an evil, monopolistic company like Microsoft
to give an even less ethical company like Sony some competition. The PS3
*may* actually contain some decent hardware for a change. That would be new
ground for Sony and it'd be thanks to pressure from Microsoft.

Anyone who buys a PS2 because they think it's technically superior needs
their head examined. The only valid reasons for buying a PS2 are:-

1. You don't like Microsoft (fair enough)

2. You prefer safety in numbers (sales) and don't really care about graphics
or sound quality.

by **Ruud van Ga** » Wed, 07 May 2003 21:35:43

On Mon, 5 May 2003 21:57:24 -0300, "K e v i n ?"

>Now that would be sweet. They are loosing $100+ per box only if their users
>don't buy the 9+ games they are supposed to (read that this was the
>average). Doesn't matter, they are in this for the long haul. Loosing
>$100 a box is there admission price to this competition.

What if the XBox2 comes out before they get enough games cash to win
back the $100?

And with too many features, an XBox would turn back into a... PC?!

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

by **Ruud van Ga** » Wed, 07 May 2003 21:37:56

The graphics bandwidth (48Gb/s IIRC) is still a nice touch for
graphics-intensive stuff (usable for blurring for example; that's
still hard to do on PC's).

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

by **Ruud van Ga** » Wed, 07 May 2003 21:46:51

...

Sound quality can be ok on PS2; it has an optical digital output so
basically anything can be done. Dolby Digital 5.1 is supported by some
games (http://www.dolby.com/games/sony.ps2.faq.html)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

rec.autos.simulators

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!

Holy crap! Check out these new screens of Gran Turismo 4!