rec.autos.simulators

I just have to say that i joined the ivga and never once have i recieved
setup's of setup information in the mail.  for the innocent members of
the ivga i think that if this thing has actually happened it was an
abuse of powere not the little guys who have not messed with the
system,,,

Just wanted to point out something that I think is VERY important here.
The IVGA software was developed to stop cheeting.  I honestly don't know
if they succeeded in preventing ALL cheeting, but it's better than
none.  I think the game should do this by itself.  And, if Papyrus
hasn't included this into NASCAR2, then they should be talking with IVGA
to figure it out.  Some people look at the IVGA the wrong way here.
Theyv'e only tried to improve a simulation that we all love.  And, I
think theyv'e done that.
  As for banning Don Wilshe from NRL...I think it's rediculas to
disqualify some one because they have more setups then someone else.
Tha majority of the fastest setups are available.  I know from
experience that you cant take someone elses setup and run the same
speeds.  To many other factors are involved.  At best it might save you
some time if your way off with the setup.  I've given my setups to any
that asked, but they would have to drive MY style for it to work.  Few
drivers drive alike.
  I also disagree that any Beta testers have any advantage over the rest
of us also.  Sure they have some more experience, but again...thats only
one small part of the puzzle.
  I'm anxiosly awaiting NASCAR2...and NRL if it's affordable.  But, I
think some feelings have been hurt here on both sides of the IVGA/NRL
discssion, and words have been said in anger.  I think we all need to
take a breath, step back, and reconsider what this entire thing is
for....A lot of enjoyment.  I can't predict the future, but those that
say no $$$ will be involved I think you need to take the blinders off.
It won't happen from the beggining, but it's only a matter of time
before a LOT of mony is involved.  Just consider ALL the possibilities
here!!!
  I didn't write this to offend any one on any side if the discussion.
I'm sure thier are LOTS of different opinions.  But, I think were all
working for the same goal here...To have a VERY fun simulator that we
can all feel proad to be a part of.  And part of that fun comes from
competing fairly and honestly.  And knowing that others are doing the
same.

Lyman VanDerWege
Director: Tidewater NASCAR Modem Series
http://www.infi.net/~lymanv/tnms/tnms.htm

The problem with the IVGa that I have heard is that one of the guys was
sending e-mail out to guys with real fast setups like Donny_Lia and saying
that they are from Papyrus wanting their setups to do testing on how to
stop cheating.In which the guy was tring to steal peoplese setups and he
was also signing his letters with someone elses name and Hawaii name
(smokkinu's).In which Smokkinu has no reason to do that because from my
experiance he is the fastest and best driver on Hawaii.It got SMokkin
suspended until Ed Martin found out who it really was and apologized to
Smokkin and let him back on.Ed is a stand up guy and does a greta job.I
will not say who the person doing that was but he is buddy buddy with Don
Wilshe.I am not saying Don had any part in this,as I have no idea or reason
to think this because Don is a decent guy on hawaii atleast.But he did go
around saying that it was smokkinu doing it when it was one of his
buddys.Now when you have to say you work for papyrus and say your someone
else to steal someones setups that is down right low.It that probably hurt
the IVGA in the eyes of Papyrus.Just my opion inwhich doesn't mean much.

Robert

Robert:

This statement is totally false and slanderous.  What you might of heard
and what you happened is totally the opposite.  Thier was a person that
did what you do.  Why dont you talk to Donny Lia and Smokkinu and get
your facts straight.  Why would anyone want to get these setups.

Don Wilshe

Since you have slandered the IVGA why dont you tell us who you heard all
this from.. Instead of making up this false statement.,   You deserve
JAIL time

hasn't included this into NASCAR2, then they should be talking with IVGA
to figure it out.  Some people look at the IVGA the wrong way here.
Theyv'e only tried to improve a simulation that we all love.  And, I
think theyv'e done that.>>

Really?  Why did the IVGA decide to have the software send the whole
setup?  They could have done bounds checking on the local machine WITHOUT
sending back complete setup information to the host.  And why did they not
put in big huge letters on their web sites that "YOU ARE GIVING US YOUR
SETUPS" ???  The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

disqualify some one because they have more setups then someone else. >>

Where do you draw the conclusion that Wilshe was banned?  I have yet to
see any official notice that Wilshe is banned.  

Randy

Don,

*ASKED*, not told.  He has requested that you not run.  He has not said
you may not run.  There is a huge difference.  In the actual case you are
free to say "go to hell..I'm racing in the NRL".   There's not anything
else they can do at that point short of banning you, something they have
not done.  If they *had* banned you, they would hardly be asking you not
to run -- they'd be telling you!  Big difference.

Randy

I disagree with the exclusion of ranking IVGA members and sense a
witch-hunt mentality developing here.  There are two key points to
remember in this argument:
Firstly there is the reality that every individual has their own unique
driving style, and the trading or alledged pilfering of driver's setups is
of little relevance beyond it's obvious ethical considerations.  A setup
that can turn 193 at Michigan for example may only produce 189's for a
different driver who tends to run a higher line in the corners. Are there
setups that are superior to others? Certainly...Are there drivers who are
superior in skill alone? Certainly. However, the use of other's setups
generally produces only a marginal improvement in lap times, if any
improvement at all. This game is at least two thirds line.
Secondly, as I understand it, the NRL will certainly be able to detect TSR
programs, illegal camber settings, etc. that have occaisonally slipped
through the cracks in the Hawaii prototype.  I'm not accusing any single
individual of cheating nor am I pointing any fingers at the IVGA. I simply
feel that everyone deserves a fair shake at the NRL, and any unethical
behavior should be addressed with authority and finality.  Don Wilshe,
Alec Flory, et. al are outstanding drivers and could smoke many of us on
any given day with the standard IROC setup. Not to mention the hundreds
(probably thousands) of dollars these guys and gals have put into
developing their driving skills.  Let's see how this works out when NRL
goes live. I don't believe in ostracizing an entire organization before
the fact. Just my twenty cents.

Trevor Keane
Hawaii: ARCA_BOB

I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about.  Are drivers going
to be paid huge amounts of money to drive for teams on the NRL.  Are
corporate sponsors going to dump thousands of dollars in our laps if we
can drive fast on a computer.  I doubt it (but if I'm wrong, please tell
me).  I have always just raced for the thrill of it, certainly not because
I ever thought I'd get anything from it.  Why does Papyrus give a darn
what Don has in the way of setups.  If people don't trust him (and I have
no reason not to) then don't race with him; but leave him the hell alone.

My 2 cents worth
ChrisP

driving style, and the trading or alledged pilfering of driver's setups is
of little relevance beyond it's obvious ethical considerations.  A setup
that can turn 193 at Michigan for example may only produce 189's for a
different driver who tends to run a higher line in the corners.>>

Fine, and if you take any given setup you might be able to say this.
However, when you have access to hundreds of setups, and from those setups
can weed out the top few percent that really are barn burners you
definitely have an advantage over over everyone else.  If nothing else,
you have a superior starting point, and with enough setups to try out, its
likely that if you're taking the setups from the laptimes that are cream
of the crop, you're going to come up with something which both fits your
driving style and gives you an edge over everyone else.

The issue for me here is simply that the stated goal of the IVGA software
was to eliminate cheating -- nothing more.  No one was told that the
director was going to help himself to the best setups and use them for his
own purposes.  Does it matter whether or not he's a good driver -- you
bet.  Your comments are right on there.  However, there are many good
drivers who just have a hard time figuring out how to tune and setup a
car, and thus don't get the most out of their abilities.  In Don's case,
he's apparently an excellent driver *AND* has access to hundreds of hours
of other peoples' *** sweat and tears in the garage -- AND he's using it
for his own ends.

Then top that off with him coming on here and slandering Papyrus left and
right, inventing facts and generally trying to make himself look like an
angel of mercy being victimized by cruel Papyrus staffers just hoping to
dominate the NRL, and you get a situation that's very ugly and very
distasteful. In Don's case, for every finger he points, there are three
pointing back at him.

Randy

<snip>   <snip>

Boy, what a ruckas this has become. Quite a lot of stuff from a private
letter between two parties.

...Just can't wait until the NRL opens up after the Hawaii Open Beta
Test shuts down...and everyone starts with a big fat Zero driver ranking.
Then I'll hear whinning like I've never heard before...
    __o
  _-\<,_  Cosmo Potapoff

<snip>

 Is there really any difference between trying out hundreds of different
setups to find the best for your driving style, and making the hundreds
of setup adjustments it takes to find your own setup?

Keith

setups to find the best for your driving style, and making the hundreds of
setup adjustments it takes to find your own setup?<<

I doubt Don tried out "hundreds" of IVGA raided setups.  Why should he
even LOOK at a setup where the hotlap was 7 mph slower than the record?!
Instead he can concentrate on the top 5-10 setups and go from there.
That's a big advantage, and there's really no denying that.

Randy

  If using someone else's setup isn't a good advantage, then why are race
cars conceiled so much in real life?  Anyone ever seen a Penske IndyCar
before a race?  The only part not covered is the***pit.